How Trudeau will work very hard on dumping FPTP

[Big Guy]

If you have found a web page or resource which explains simply (for the average canadian) how each of the different proportional representation methods operate, please share them here.

[ReeferMadness]

If you have found a web page or resource which explains simply (for the average canadian) how each of the different proportional representation methods operate, please share them here.

So, first off, you should understand that Trudeau has committed to voting reform and a process that will involve all parties; but not necessarily proportional representation. He is on record as favoring what he calls ranked ballot (normally called alternative vote or instant runoff voting) and it is not a proportional system.

However, if you want to learn about proportional representation, here is a good place to start.

ETA: you should also be aware that there are an almost endless number of offshoots and variations to the voting system proposals. Fair Vote Canada is an organization devoted to proportional representation and there are three proposal videos (including one designed by Stephane Dion) here.

Edited November 6, 2015 by ReeferMadness

[-TSS-]

The Liberals are going to do away with an electoral system which has just given them a handsome majority and kept them in power for the best part of the 20th century. Of course they will, they promised.

[ReeferMadness]

The Liberals are going to do away with an electoral system which has just given them a handsome majority and kept them in power for the best part of the 20th century. Of course they will, they promised.

If they intended to back away from this promise, Trudeau wouldn't have mentioned it during his acceptance speech.

Now, it's possible that he's going to slant the promise towards IRV, which could be even more biased towards the Liberals; but that's a different story.

[WestCanMan]

In order for Trudeau to change the essence of our democracy I'm pretty sure he will need more than a simple majority vote in the HOC. Common sense dictates that would up over 66%, maybe 75 or 80%.

It's not happening, /story.

[ReeferMadness]

In order for Trudeau to change the essence of our democracy I'm pretty sure he will need more than a simple majority vote in the HOC. Common sense dictates that would up over 66%, maybe 75 or 80%.

It's not happening, /story.

You're wrong.

It's not changing the essence of our democracy. The voting system is not specified in the constitution. Trudeau campaigned on this and since he's been elected, he has a mandate to do it.

And there are precedents in Canada where voting systems have been changed by governments without referenda. STV was once used in Alberta and Manitoba.

[overthere]

You were vilified because you were jerks while you were doing it. Cut backs and budget carving are damned hard at the best of times, but the Tories treated it a happy game of whack-a-mole, and that mean spirited way they pursued it caught up with them. Hopefully, in the future, nasty little worms like Pierre Poilievre are dispatched to the back benches where they can partake in their fair share of verbal diarrhea outside of cabinet.

Yet these animals left the country with a balanced budget, reasonable unemployment. low inflation, low interest rates, the lowest taxes on the middle class in 50 years, and calm in Quebec.

They should all be summarily executed.

[overthere]

The Liberals are going to do away with an electoral system which has just given them a handsome majority and kept them in power for the best part of the 20th century. Of course they will, they promised.

He said: last election using FPTP, and within 18 months. Is that a casual remark, or is there a plan ?

I think there definitely is a plan, and it is ranked ballots.

Proportional representation is suicide, all it ensures is endless minorities and fringe lunacy.

He knows a shift in popular vote of 7 or 8% means he is back on the other side of the House.

Ranked ballots guarantee Liberal dynasty, which is what all decent Canadians want and deserve.

Sure, there will be a couple of years of noble talk, speechifying and citizens input - but the deal is done.

[angrypenguin]

He said: last election using FPTP, and within 18 months. Is that a casual remark, or is there a plan ?

I think there definitely is a plan, and it is ranked ballots.

Proportional representation is suicide, all it ensures is endless minorities and fringe lunacy.

He knows a shift in popular vote of 7 or 8% means he is back on the other side of the House.

Ranked ballots guarantee Liberal dynasty, which is what all decent Canadians want and deserve.

Sure, there will be a couple of years of noble talk, speechifying and citizens input - but the deal is done.

The majority of Canadians do not want the Liberals in power.

[overthere]

The majority of Canadians do not want the Liberals in power.

That won't matter at all.

[Smallc]

That won't matter at all.

At the moment, the majority of Canadians are fine with it though. That was true of the Conservatives for many years as well.

[Big Guy]

So, first off, you should understand that Trudeau has committed to voting reform and a process that will involve all parties; but not necessarily proportional representation. He is on record as favoring what he calls ranked ballot (normally called alternative vote or instant runoff voting) and it is not a proportional system.

However, if you want to learn about proportional representation, here is a good place to start.

ETA: you should also be aware that there are an almost endless number of offshoots and variations to the voting system proposals. Fair Vote Canada is an organization devoted to proportional representation and there are three proposal videos (including one designed by Stephane Dion) here.

Thank you for the references.

[SpankyMcFarland]

The majority of Canadians do not want the Liberals in power.

I suspect the anti-Conservative vote exceeded the anti-Liberal i.e. the Conservatives are the odd man out in terms of their views. With PR we could test that claim. Ideally, a govt should command the support of a majority of Canadian voters, which would probably mean coalitions, and then we would see who can play well with whom. Tasha Kheiriddin had a good article on what PR might mean for the Conservatives and why she hopes Trudeau won't follow through:

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/tasha-kheiriddin-why-proportional-representation-would-be-bad-for-the-conservatives

Edited November 20, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland

[overthere]

At the moment, the majority of Canadians are fine with it though. That was true of the Conservatives for many years as well.

The majority of Canadians are fine with a modified system that virtually guarntees Liberal rule forever? Maybe in your neighbourhood, not in mine.

[-TSS-]

The whole thing will be forgotten in due course. Trust me, if there was ever a time that pondering which electoral-system to use was the most urgent issue facing the country then you would have finally reached some sort of utopia or collective happiness.

[Wilber]

The whole thing will be forgotten in due course. Trust me, if there was ever a time that pondering which electoral-system to use was the most urgent issue facing the country then you would have finally reached some sort of utopia or collective happiness.

Mind you, it is one election promise he could keep that shouldn't involve spending a lot of money.

[webc5]

Ranked ballots favor the liberals as stated earlier the liberals would be everyone's second choice. FPTP favour the Conservatives.

[TimG]

FPTP allowed the NDP to impose a carbon tax in Alberta. Such a decisive move would have been impossible in a perpetual minority government dominated by right of center parties. I notice that none of the proportional representation fans seem to care about that particular 'unfairness'. They only care when it means their pet policies don't get implemented.

Edited November 24, 2015 by TimG

[overthere]

FPTP allowed the NDP to impose a carbon tax in Alberta. Such a decisive move would have been impossible in a perpetual minority government dominated by right of center parties. I notice that none of the proportional representation fans seem to care about that particular 'unfairness'. They only care when it means their pet policies don't get implemented.

And not a peep about electoral reform in Alberta.... despite PropRep being a chronic and sturdy plank of NDP platforms everyhwere in Canada for decades... it seems to magically disappear once they gain power occasionally and PropRep would make them a minority govt....... ie Manitoba and SK. And Alberta.

FPTP favour the Conservatives.

Obviously not, since the Cons get substantial chunks of votes across Canada yet form only one govt- in Newfoundland. It favours nearly all the incumbent governments in Canada that gained <less than 50% yet hold majorities, which is most or all of them.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Charles Anthony
fixed quotes

[ReeferMadness]

You do realize that pretty much every PR system requires a party to reach a threshold before they can actually send representatives to the elected assembly. You're objection seems more like an invented scenario than a real objection.

Ranked ballots is not a PR system.

[SpankyMcFarland]

The majority of Canadians do not want the Liberals in power.

Could you clarify what you mean there. In a simple system like FPTP, it is very difficult to discern what people want exactly, let alone want least. In the last election campaign, there was a pretty clear fault line between the Conservatives and the rest which I thought went well beyond mere incumbent-bashing.

Edited December 10, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland

[Big Guy]

I believe that what the Liberals have stated that this will be the last election under the FPTP system.

Assuming that it will be some form of democracy then there are many options:

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/polit/damy/BeginnningReading/PRsystems.htm

During the last 10 years, a political party which did not have the direct support of 60% of the Canadian electorate governed as a majority government. These next four years will be governed by another majority government but without the direct support of 60% of those who voted.

Personally, while I still believe in democracy and the right of the electorate to choose their leaders I also believe that all differing points of view should be represented in proportion to the percentage of the voters who support them.

[WestCanMan]

Could you clarify what you mean there. In a simple system like FPTP, it is very difficult to discern what people want exactly, let alone want least. In the last election campaign, there was a pretty clear fault line between the Conservatives and the rest which I thought went well beyond mere incumbent-bashing.

The argument against fptp here was based on the notion that it failed us in the last election based on the fact that "the majority of Canadians didn't want the Harper conservatives in power because less than 50% of Canadians voted for them". When that logical fallacy was made public all the liberal and ndp supporters gobbled it up like seagulls on a basket of fries. The real problem from the Liberals perspective was that noone wanted the liberals and they were completely humiliated at the polls. They felt jilted so they blamed fptp.

The poster was probably just underlining the fact that the Liberals just got elected with less than 50% of the vote too. It's the same misrepresentation of the perceived problem with fptp that went around when the cons were in power.

[Big Guy]

I hope that Trudeau will soon beging to deal with electoral reform. If indeed, Canada will be going to a type of proportional representation system, then it will mean a big adjustment for each of the political parties. An MMP system requires a different preparation from a Ranked Ballot system.

The sooner this government decides on a system (and decides on the process to choose a system), the more time our political parties and voters will have to adjust to an understand the process.

[overthere]

I hope that Trudeau will soon beging to deal with electoral reform. If indeed, Canada will be going to a type of proportional representation system, then it will mean a big adjustment for each of the political parties. An MMP system requires a different preparation from a Ranked Ballot system.

The sooner this government decides on a system (and decides on the process to choose a system), the more time our political parties and voters will have to adjust to an understand the process.

There is no chance whatsoever that Canada will see any form of proportional representation. There is no reason at all for Trudeau to implement a system that does not favour his party, so he won't. It's pretty much that simple. Proprep would ensure that he and every subsequent govt would be in minorities and coalitions. What could possibly be his motive for choosing proprep?

Nope, the deal is done folks. We have the means: a legislative consultation committee that will have a majority of Liberals. We have the timetable: 18 months. We have the motive: it is a campaign promise. Well let's face it- the real motive is to more or less permanently eliminate the Conservatives or NDP as ever forming a government. And this is one promise he won't break. The Liberals have a golden opportunity here, they will do this early in their mandate.

The legislative committee will go through the sham of asking Canadians for their input, but there will not be any referendum. It's not a constitutional issue.

Trudeaus one big hurdle is getting it through the Senate. I expect to see some strategy on that soon. The timetable is no accident: that Senate hurdle will apply to all legislation, so whatever measures he applies to legislation happening right now will be settled by the time that ranked ballots need to be punched through.