Canada Relations With Israel

[Moonlight Graham]

You keep lamenting that Canada is friends with Israel. The only reason you give is your alleged concern with the human rights abuses you see them guilty of.

At the same time you keep singing the praises of Iran and calling for us to befriend them, with zero regard to their horrific human rights abuses.

It is difficult, given there is no perceivable advantage to Canada in abandoning Israel while embracing Iran, not to consider what other reasons might cause people of a certain mentality to continually post demands that Canada "wash its hands of Israel".

In any event, Canada will never besmirch its reputation by befriending Iran, the place which executes more people per capita than anywhere on earth, and the most children of any country on earth, the place where torture and rape in its innumerable security prisons are legendary. Freedom House rates freedom around the world, with 1 being best, and 7 being worst. It gives Israel a 1.5. Iran gets a 6. No one who had any concern with human rights abuses would repeatedly call upon Canada to to embrace them.

Name a developing country that has a good human rights record. Are you saying we shouldn't have friendly relations with the whole of Africa, most of the middle-east and Latin America, and most of Asia, including China, because of human rights abuses? We can pressure regimes to have better human rights without being their enemy. Being friendly with Iran doesn't mean being not friendly with Israel.

We have to ask ourselves why we have bad relations with Iran? It's mostly because of the hostility created from the Iranian Revolution and maintained since. That was 35 years ago, who cares it's over. Iran wants to defend itself like Israel, I don't blame them, even though it's bad for the region for Iran to have nukes and we should do everything to prevent it. Iran also sees our close ties with Saudi Arabia. I'd rather be friendly with both than super-friendly with one & hostile with the other..and end up creating an Iran-Syria-Russia-China alliance. The West can be friendly with Iran and Syria etc. if we take the right approach. We can also be have better relations with Russia, instead of the US instigating hostility since 9/11 by trying to build a missile defense shield in Europe, which the Russians are rightly worried about.

Argus all you want to do is isolate everyone when it solves nothing and benefits nobody.

[Big Guy]

Bigotry, xenophobia and prejudice are the results of lack of knowledge about those different from us and an arrogance based on the self-assumed superiority of the bigot. Trying to educate a bigot is a waste of time since his/her lack of knowledge creates a default position of aggressive rhetoric. They do not have the capability to consider any criticism as a learning experience.

I agree with Moonlight Graham in that there is no reason to cut any ties with Israel. Eventually, the Netanyahu regime will be defeated and change will come. Canada, by reviewing and cooling their relationship with Israel may help that change to take place. The Israeli moderates may eventually take back their country and Canada might be in a good position to help them repair the damage the Zionists have done. At the moment, we must make it plain that Canada is not walking in lock step with Israel but treating them as we do any democracy whose leadership is taking them down the wrong path. Netanyahu has stated that either we are with him or against him. We cannot be seen as being with him.

Iran has become accepted as a major player in the region by the major countries, already accepted as a required partner in the solution to the problems there and is ripe for partnership with Canada for human rights improvements and economic development.

[Guest]

Bigotry, xenophobia and prejudice are the results of lack of knowledge about those different from us and an arrogance based on the self-assumed superiority of the bigot. Trying to educate a bigot is a waste of time since his/her lack of knowledge creates a default position of aggressive rhetoric. They do not have the capability to consider any criticism as a learning experience.

What if the things that make them different, also, by definition, confirm our superiority?

Still bigoted?

[Argus]

Yeah! The people you discuss issues with don't have an "independent thinking process".

Evidently not. It's quite frustrating, at times, trying to explain things to such narrow, closed minds.

Asked and answered. Foreign embassies provide consular servers to Canadians abroad, they are used in the collection of intelligence in collaboration with our allies, and to make sure that there's good communication between us and potential adversaries which can save Canadian lives.

We should ban Canadians traveling to despotic countries, or tell them that if they get in trouble there they shouldn't expect help from us.

Canada has no need of intelligence on Iran and has no foreign intelligence service, I might add. And since we have precious few dealings with them we don't need any. We can see all we need to of Iran by their actions.

[Argus]

That's why you wont be put in charge of intelligence gathering for a popsicle stand, never mind a country.

Canada has no foreign intelligence service and never has. What intelligence we use we get from the British, French, Americans and other allies.

[Argus]

Name a developing country that has a good human rights record.

Name one which executes so many people, so many children as Iran.

I'm not blind to the woeful state of human rights in the world. But there are certain despotic regimes which are head and shoulders above, or perhaps I should say, below the rest.

Are you saying we shouldn't have friendly relations with the whole of Africa, most of the middle-east and Latin America, and most of Asia,

We should have friendly relations with democracies, and with those nations who are so large, like China and Russia, we need to. For the rest, if we have a strong trade relationship, then fine. Otherwise, no need.

We can pressure regimes to have better human rights without being their enemy.

Do you honestly think these nations give a flying fig what Canada thinks of their human rights records?

Being friendly with Iran doesn't mean being not friendly with Israel.

I don't want to be friendly with Iran. I don't want to be friendly with China or Russia or Saudi Arabia either. We can have cordial relations with China and Russia because it's needful, but we certainly aren't their friend and they most certainly are not ours, or anyone elses.

We have to ask ourselves why we have bad relations with Iran?

Because it's a despotic theocracy which murders and tortures and rapes people, and sponsors terrorism around the world?

Iran wants to defend itself like Israel, I don't blame them, even though it's bad for the region for Iran to have nukes and we should do everything to prevent it.

Israel has been under constant attack since its inception, by all the surrounding Arab states, and is still in a state of war with some. A week doesn't pass without the Iranian leadership vowing to destroy them. I can certainly see why Israel needs to defend itself. Iran wants nukes not to defend itself but to threaten Israel and the Sunni Arab states nearby. If it gets them the Saudis will want them too.

We can also be have better relations with Russia, instead of the US instigating hostility since 9/11 by trying to build a missile defense shield in Europe, which the Russians are rightly worried about.

That's complete crap, you know. The Russians aren't worried about a missile defense shield. The Russians are a kleptocracy run by a megalomaniac who sees himself as a new Russian Czar and wants to take over every piece of ground he can. And the sheep-like Russian people only care that he wags around the mighty Russian penis so that the world pays attention and 'respects' them. Blaming bad relations between the west and Putin are like blaming Poland for bad relations with Hitler.

Argus all you want to do is isolate everyone when it solves nothing and benefits nobody.

No, I simply have a realistic view of Canada's position in the world. Progressives seem to think that Captain Canada can drop from the sky amid the warring factions and they will all be so in awe of how noble and tolerant and just plain NICE we are that they'll humbly beg us to tell them how to solve their problems. Well it ain't going to happen. The Iranians and the Russians couldn't care less what Canada says or does or wants or thinks about them.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Argus

[Big Guy]

What if the things that make them different, also, by definition, confirm our superiority?

Still bigoted?

A difficulty in semantics. I guess it also depends by whose definition and "confirm our superiority" in what? Our physical size, our colour, our attitude towards material wealth? And what would make one "superior" to another?

Is the 70 year old $ billionaire in his penthouse apartment in New York "superior" to the 70 year old peasant living in a hut in the Andes?

I suggest that most people in their 70's in India, China and Africa could easily outrun me. Does that make them superior?

I suggest that people and peoples are different. After their basic needs are met their have different societal needs and very different wants. I would also suggest that at this time, the average Palestinian is satisfying far fewer needs and wants than is the Israeli who is part of the occupation of Palestinian lands.

[Argus]

What if the things that make them different, also, by definition, confirm our superiority?

Still bigoted?

You will never get a progressive bigot to admit he is wrong on anything. Nor will you get them to understand, much less admit that their view of life is itself innately bigoted, the soft liberal bigotry of low exceptions which causes them to be condescendingly forgiving of any amount of bad conduct by those they perceive as 'brown' while righteously defending them from those they see as bigoted for, ironically, insisting on holding them to the same standards as they do anyone who is 'white'. The progressive bigot sees himself as nobly defending the savages against the unfair criticism and attacks of his fellow whites who unfairly demand they act the same as us when, as the progressive knows full well, they are not capable of doing so.

You will usually see them with strained arms from endlessly patting themselves on the back about what a good guy they are for being so 'tolerant'.

[Guest]

A difficulty in semantics. I guess it also depends by whose definition and "confirm our superiority" in what? Our physical size, our colour, our attitude towards material wealth? And what would make one "superior" to another?

Is the 70 year old $ billionaire in his penthouse apartment in New York "superior" to the 70 year old peasant living in a hut in the Andes?

I suggest that most people in their 70's in India, China and Africa could easily outrun me. Does that make them superior?

I suggest that people and peoples are different. After their basic needs are met their have different societal needs and very different wants. I would also suggest that at this time, the average Palestinian is satisfying far fewer needs and wants than is the Israeli who is part of the occupation of Palestinian lands.

No, what I mean is this: I don't care about billionaires and peasants. Or how fast you run. I only care about my views, and how you interpret them into bigotry, xenophobia and racism.

My views, for instance, on blasphemy, and the punishment for same. I'm superior to many cultures on that score. I'm just wondering if you are too?

My views on freedom of expression. On Women's rights. Gay rights. Witches' and Albinos' rights. (To move around the world a bit)

All aspects of other cultures over which I can revel in my superiority. I just want to know where my views on the above issues differ from yours, and where I become a bigot but you don't. Is it just because I bring them up?

If you are implying that any one who, by dint of their country of origin or upbringing, can run faster or further than me, is superior to me, I'm okay with it. They are better runners.

[Big Guy]

No, what I mean is this: ...

Thank you for your civil questions, it is very easy to start slinging insults on this topic.

I do not know your views on those subjects so am unable to comment.

I will try to be more specific - Being superior implies that there are others who are inferior. I believe that all people are born equal. Environment is the greatest designator of success if one gauges survival for a long time as success. I also believe in a small genetic component that can be triggered to effect behaviour.

Everyone is different and consequently your definition of what bigotry is may be different from mine. You do not know me so I am surprised why you would care what I think.

I have earned three university degrees and am allowed a few letters after my name on official stationary. Does that make me superior to a high school dropout? I say no. I am more educated, yes, but superior? not quite. My income is in the upper 20% of Canadians. Does that make me superior to the 80%? I say no. I have more material wealth than others but does that make me superior? No.

The dogma of any religion is that it is the only "true" religion. I follow a popular Christian religion. I do so because I was born into it and it makes sense to me and gives me comfort. Is it superior to others? I do not think so. I have tried to study other popular religions but none make as much sense to me as does mine. There are religions and beliefs popular among billions of other humans on this earth - can they all be wrong? Their religions are different but are they inferior to mine? I do not think so. They are different.

When you hear things like "Sure he loves money, he is a Jew isn't he"? That kind of ignorance I consider destructive to our society and when I see or hear something that appears bigoted to me then I react. Bigotry, xenophobia, prejudice, misogyny or any misanthropic behaviour is legal but can easily lead to lawlessness if assumed to be acceptable as mainstream attitudes.

Thank you for your interest.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Big Guy

[BC_chick]

ETA - I thought I'm posting directly after bcsapper and therefore left out a quote.

You really didn't understand the point he's making? I don't think he's denying the west's 'superiority' when it comes to women's or gay rights, he is just saying that's not all there is to cultural superiority.

Edited November 1, 2015 by BC_chick

[Guest]

ETA - I thought I'm posting directly after bcsapper and therefore left out a quote.

You really didn't understand the point he's making? I don't think he's denying the west's 'superiority' when it comes to women's or gay rights, he is just saying that's not all there is to cultural superiority.

That's not the point I'm answering. The point I take exception to is the one that makes anyone who brings up areas of cultural difference where one culture is obviously superior to another, bigoted, racist or xenophobic.

That's it.

The reason I bring it up is because I can't imagine Big Guy's views on those issues are any different from mine, or yours, for that matter, so why am I a bigot but he isn't? Is it just because I choose to actually notice?

[BC_chick]

It's not just noticing, it's what the fact that as a result of your views you dehumanize others as some kind of sub-species.

[Argus]

It's not just noticing, it's what the fact that as a result of your views you dehumanize others as some kind of sub-species.

Or by refusing to bring it up, you patronize them and enable their reprehensible cultural beliefs and practices.

[BC_chick]

Or by refusing to bring it up, you patronize them and enable their reprehensible cultural beliefs and practices.

Sure. Just like I did on the niqab thread. Please.

[CITIZEN_2015]

I'm superior to many cultures on that score. I'm just wondering if you are too?

My views on freedom of expression. On Women's rights. Gay rights. Witches' and Albinos' rights. (To move around the world a bit)

All aspects of other cultures over which I can revel in my superiority.

And what makes your culture (which I take it by your culture you mean western culture) superior to any other?? Yes there are plenty of good things about western cultures a few you mentioned like freedom of expression, women's rights, gay's rights and many others but what about the other side like the bad side like drugs, teenage pregnancy, prostitution and pimping, child abuse, rapes and sexual assaults, incest, drunkenness, wide spread wife and spouse abuse .Yes these are part of western culture too. Eastern culture has some good side too like warmth, hospitality, strong family attachment, sacrifices, friendship but yest lacking some good western items too like women's rights.

No culture is superior to another it is just that one culture is DIFFERENT to another that is all. None better or worse than other. No culture is perfect including western culture and in my view it is an indication of arrogance or ignorance to think that one is superior to other.

Edited November 1, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

Sure. Just like I did on the niqab thread. Please.

I'm not speaking of you in particular.

Who is going to tell the middle eastern man that his views on gender equality are primitive and stupid? His government? Not damned likely! Government controlled media? Not a chance! His imam or mullah? No way! The desperately politically correct western liberal so frantic to assure and reassure him that he respects his culture and values? Nope.

[Argus]

And what makes your culture (which I take it by your culture you mean western culture) superior to any other?? Yes there are plenty of good things about western cultures a few you mentioned like freedom of expression, women's rights, gay's rights and many others

Many, MANY others, like respect for individual liberties and rights in a wide array of areas, and the cultural contract which says we, the community, are responsible for taking care of the weak and poor and sick.

but what about the other side like the bad side like drugs, teenage pregnancy, prostitution and pimping, child abuse, rapes and sexual assaults, incest, drunkenness

You think these don't exist in other cultures!? A woman alone, even clad head to toe, can't walk the streets alone in India or Egypt without being sexually attacked and harassed. Iran's government has organized brothels, and child abuse is endemic throughout the Muslim world due to the perception, real or not, that this is acceptable because Muhhamed married a 9 year old. Meanwhile, in AIDS ravaged parts of Africa men look for pre-pubescent girls to rape because the think they're free of AIDS or will cure the AIDS they already have.

wide spread wife and spouse abuse .

Both very much against the law in the west, and heavily policed, usually with special police squads and laws.

Spousal rape isn't even against the law in much of the world, and beating your spouse is ignored or legal.

No culture is superior to another it is just that one culture is DIFFERENT to another that is all. None better or worse than other.

Such a position is morally indefensible and intellectually bankrupt. A culture which values the individual and encourages them to attain fulfillment in any area their personality and skills drive them is, I assert, infinitely superior to a culture which has no respect for the individual, and places them in rigid boxes without regard to their abilities, wants or needs. That's especially so when the reasons are based on a centuries old interpretation of religious dogma. A culture which allows the human spirit and intellect to go where it will is far superior to one which wraps it in chains and demands that it follow its own rigid dogma and beliefs upon punishment of death, torture or imprisonment.

[CITIZEN_2015]

You think these don't exist in other cultures!? A woman alone, even clad head to toe, can't walk the streets alone in India or Egypt without being sexually attacked and harassed. Iran's government has organized brothels, and child abuse is endemic throughout the Muslim world due to the perception, real or not, that this is acceptable because Muhhamed married a 9 year old. Meanwhile, in AIDS ravaged parts of Africa men look for pre-pubescent girls to rape because the think they're free of AIDS or will cure the AIDS they already have.

Both very much against the law in the west, and heavily policed, usually with special police squads and laws.

Spousal rape isn't even against the law in much of the world, and beating your spouse is ignored or legal.

Such a position is morally indefensible and intellectually bankrupt. A culture which values the individual and encourages them to attain fulfillment in any area their personality and skills drive them is, I assert, infinitely superior to a culture which has no respect for the individual, and places them in rigid boxes without regard to their abilities, wants or needs. That's especially so when the reasons are based on a centuries old interpretation of religious dogma. A culture which allows the human spirit and intellect to go where it will is far superior to one which wraps it in chains and demands that it follow its own rigid dogma and beliefs upon punishment of death, torture or imprisonment.

There has been a few well publicized and sad cases of horrible rapes in India but saying that it is widespread is a clear exaggeration.

EXCUSE ME!!!! Iran's islamic government has organized brothels!!!!!!.It is easy to make enormously false statement and score some points in the minds of uninformed but it is cheap.

Yes I know it is against the law but what I listed is happening as we speak. So you are saying in India and Egypt rape is legal???

As I said there are good and bad sides to any culture and none is perfect each have their own good and evil and only different to each other not superior.

Edited November 1, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[Guest]

And what makes your culture (which I take it by your culture you mean western culture) superior to any other?? Yes there are plenty of good things about western cultures a few you mentioned like freedom of expression, women's rights, gay's rights and many others but what about the other side like the bad side like drugs, teenage pregnancy, prostitution and pimping, child abuse, rapes and sexual assaults, incest, drunkenness, wide spread wife and spouse abuse .Yes these are part of western culture too. Eastern culture has some good side too like warmth, hospitality, strong family attachment, sacrifices, friendship but yest lacking some good western items too like women's rights.

No culture is superior to another it is just that one culture is DIFFERENT to another that is all. None better or worse than other. No culture is perfect including western culture and in my view it is an indication of arrogance or ignorance to think that one is superior to other.

Given the points I brought up I think it is an indication of wilful ignorance to think that one culture is not superior to another. Unless, as Big Guy pointed out, you mean in terms of running skills. Then I don't know.

As for the other things you bring up, sure, no argument here. The original point was in relation to Big Guy's assertion that anyone who thinks they are superior to a culture that, say, has the death penaly for blasphemy, is racist, bigoted and xenophobic. They most certainly are not. The only crime seems to be pointing it out.

If you feel superior to cultures that allow things like drugs, teenage pregnancy, prostitution and pimping, child abuse, rapes and sexual assaults, incest, drunkenness, wide spread wife and spouse abuse then why should that be a problem? So do I.

We're not racists for that, are we?

Edited November 2, 2015 by bcsapper

[Argus]

There has been a few well publicized and sad cases of horrible rapes in India but saying that it is widespread is a clear exaggeration.

Why would you say that? Do you have inside information? Have you been to India? On what basis do you make such a claim?

Women are extremely undervalued in Indian society. Infanticide of female children and ultrasound screening in order to abort female babies is widespread.

In such a culture, where, by the way, there is no law against marital rape, and where government, police and courts are extremely corrupt, why would you expect rape not to be widespread?

http://www.ibtimes.com/rape-india-epidemic-sexual-violence-against-women-children-rape-laws-arent-enough-2157704

EXCUSE ME!!!! Iran's islamic government has organized brothels!!!!!!.It is easy to make enormously false statement and score some points in the minds of uninformed but it is cheap.

Joining a global trend, the fundamentalists have added another way to dehumanize women and girls: buying and selling them for prostitution. Exact numbers of victims are impossible to obtain, but according to an official source in Tehran, there has been a 635 percent increase in the number of teenage girls in prostitution. The magnitude of this statistic conveys how rapidly this form of abuse has grown. In Tehran, there are an estimated 84,000 women and girls in prostitution, many of them are on the streets, others are in the 250 brothels that reportedly operate in the city.

[Guest]

Thank you for your civil questions, it is very easy to start slinging insults on this topic.

No problem. I'm no fan of acrimony either.

I do not know your views on those subjects so am unable to comment.

My views are fairly standard, western liberal views. As I assume yours are. Hence the constant amazement at your assertion that such views are racist, bigoted and xenophobic.

I will try to be more specific - Being superior implies that there are others who are inferior. I believe that all people are born equal. Environment is the greatest designator of success if one gauges survival for a long time as success. I also believe in a small genetic component that can be triggered to effect behaviour.

Agreed. But it is solely the behavior I am talking about. Reasons for the behaviour are another argument.

Everyone is different and consequently your definition of what bigotry is may be different from mine. You do not know me so I am surprised why you would care what I think.

You seem to care what I think, or you wouldn't call my views racist, bigoted and xenophobic. (And by "mine" I mean any who hold those views. I don't think you have specifically tarred me with those epithets) Plus, what's the point of coming on here if you don't argue?

I have earned three university degrees and am allowed a few letters after my name on official stationary. Does that make me superior to a high school dropout? I say no. I am more educated, yes, but superior? not quite. My income is in the upper 20% of Canadians. Does that make me superior to the 80%? I say no. I have more material wealth than others but does that make me superior? No.

Your behaviour makes you superior. That's all.

The dogma of any religion is that it is the only "true" religion. I follow a popular Christian religion. I do so because I was born into it and it makes sense to me and gives me comfort. Is it superior to others? I do not think so. I have tried to study other popular religions but none make as much sense to me as does mine. There are religions and beliefs popular among billions of other humans on this earth - can they all be wrong? Their religions are different but are they inferior to mine? I do not think so. They are different.

Any religion that is adhered to by an individual is fine with me. Any religion in which that adherent seeks to affect in any way someone else's behaviour is abhorrent to me.

When you hear things like "Sure he loves money, he is a Jew isn't he"? That kind of ignorance I consider destructive to our society and when I see or hear something that appears bigoted to me then I react. Bigotry, xenophobia, prejudice, misogyny or any misanthropic behaviour is legal but can easily lead to lawlessness if assumed to be acceptable as mainstream attitudes.

Fully agree. (With the exception that I value freedom of speech such that I am okay with the expression of such views, so long as the basic conditions vis a vis incitement, violence, etc, are met)

Thank you for your interest.

And thank you for yours.

[Big Guy]

Sorry - I do not relpy to parsed comments. It leads to parsing of parsed comments and .... I soon lose track of what I was thinking about - besides - I have nothing to add.

[SpankyMcFarland]

I'm not calling on us to build ties with Iran and abandon ties with a democratic country. i was quite happy when Harper was treating the Chinese with disdain, though of course, everyone on the Left we aghast, horrified we were offending the noble Chinese.

Shows how much concern there is among zealots of the Left with all their crocodile tears about human rights abuses.

To say everyone 'on the left', whatever that means here, was aghast with criticism of China is completely incorrect. Many Canadians of every political hue have been steadfast in their criticism of China for decades. The current Chinese regime is a clear threat to gobal peace and stability.

[ToadBrother]

To say everyone 'on the left', whatever that means here, was aghast with criticism of China is completely incorrect. Many Canadians of every political hue have been steadfast in their criticism of China for decades. The current Chinese regime is a clear threat to gobal peace and stability.

I'd argue the fact that the only actual response to the US's sail-by of China's little South China Sea artificial territory-building plan was the not-very-scary summoning of the US ambassador suggests that China, no matter how much bluster it may partake of, knows precisely where it stands in relation to the US's military and economic power.