Black Dog Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 Part of me wants an ISIS terrorist to come into Canada and do something bad. This 25000 # is ridiculous. The US of A, a population 10x our size isn't even allowing that many Syrians to come to their country! I hope they get you first. Quote
angrypenguin Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 I hope they get you first. They already almost got us, and yet the left want to keep on bringing more and more and more people. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Black Dog Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) They already almost got us, and yet the left want to keep on bringing more and more and more people. LOL wut Edited October 23, 2015 by Black Dog Quote
angrypenguin Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 LOL wut http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/isis-sympathizer-arrested-after-plotting-to-bomb-u-s-consulate-in-toronto-cbsa Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
dialamah Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/isis-sympathizer-arrested-after-plotting-to-bomb-u-s-consulate-in-toronto-cbsa 2013. Not a refugee. Not even a Syrian. Quote
Black Dog Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/isis-sympathizer-arrested-after-plotting-to-bomb-u-s-consulate-in-toronto-cbsa Oh for a second there you had me thinking there was some credible ISIS plot involved and not another case of a lone goofball egged on by our own security forces. Edited October 23, 2015 by Black Dog Quote
hitops Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 These are not the Vietnamese boat people. We will experience the consequences of who we take in. Quote
Smallc Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 These are not the Vietnamese boat people. We will experience the consequences of who we take in. I'm sure people said the same thing about the boat people. Quote
hitops Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) I'm sure people said the same thing about the boat people. They have been proven wrong, it was a success story. Regarding arab muslim refugees, look no further than Europe for that story. We should learn from history, not be blind. Edited October 23, 2015 by hitops Quote
Smallc Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 They have been proven wrong, it was a success story. Regarding arab muslim refugees, look no further than Europe for that story. We already have Arab Muslims living here. I don't agree with refugees at all (cost to society), but I'm not about to say that these ones will be any worse. We're not talking about a large number all things considered, and Syria was a relatively moderate country. Quote
hitops Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) We already have Arab Muslims living here. I don't agree with refugees at all (cost to society), but I'm not about to say that these ones will be any worse. We're not talking about a large number all things considered, and Syria was a relatively moderate country. We don't have nearly as many as they do in Europe. We can learn from them. Edited October 23, 2015 by hitops Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 Regarding arab muslim refugees, look no further than Europe for that story. We should learn from history, not be blind. It's not clear what is assumed to be learned from said history, and what the implications are of these lessons. I have, in the past, played back peoples' assumptions and generalizations about religions to them, substituting nationality and heritage for religion, and been accused (with shock !) of labelling them 'racist'. And yet, they had no trouble attributing negative traits to religious groups. It's hard to have a serious conversation about these things, as we have seen. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
hitops Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) It's not clear what is assumed to be learned from said history, and what the implications are of these lessons. I have, in the past, played back peoples' assumptions and generalizations about religions to them, substituting nationality and heritage for religion, and been accused (with shock !) of labelling them 'racist'. And yet, they had no trouble attributing negative traits to religious groups. It's hard to have a serious conversation about these things, as we have seen. It doesn't matter if it is religious belief, or some other belief. A large group of people who, statistically as a group, holds to a doctrine that promotes the idea they are superior you are inferior (classic arab style Islam), is going to, statistically, cause a lot more problems than one that does not (boat people). If is the belief system, not the fact that it happens to a religious system, that is the problem. I have no problem with religious people in general. And when I say is going to, I mean to say 'has', when looking at the European example. This is isn't a pet theory, it is what has happened. I can't think of anywhere where Vietnamese emigres have caused any notable problems. Edited October 23, 2015 by hitops Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 It doesn't matter if it is religious belief, or some other belief. A large group of people who, statistically as a group, holds to a doctrine that promotes the idea they are superior you are inferior (classic arab style Islam), is going to, statistically, cause a lot more problems than one that does not (boat people). This is every religion though. Why does this flavour of the belief system cause bad behavior ? And when I say is going to, I mean to say 'has', when looking at the European example. How is it separate from 'identity', such as nationalism for example ? We have had people try to 'prove' it or explain it in the past but they have never been able to do it. Separate religion out as a factor somehow and explain why this one religion is to blame for the ills that attributed to it and I will agree that it needs to be looked at. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
hitops Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) This is every religion though. Why does this flavour of the belief system cause bad behavior ? Except that it's not. It is getting pretty hard to find a conflict with a religious basis or connection that does not involve Muslims. It is pretty close to a monopoly. A distant second would be conflicts with no specifically religious overtones or basis. How is it separate from 'identity', such as nationalism for example ? We have had people try to 'prove' it or explain it in the past but they have never been able to do it. Separate religion out as a factor somehow and explain why this one religion is to blame for the ills that attributed to it and I will agree that it needs to be looked at. The same could be said about any proposed cause of conflict. Edited October 23, 2015 by hitops Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 It is getting pretty hard to find a conflict with a religious basis or connection that does not involve Muslims. What about the religion causes the violence though ? How do you know that religion is not simply a cofactor here ? For example, this is the dominant religion in a remote, oil-rich part of the world so perhaps resource contention is the root cause ? The same could be said about any proposed cause of conflict. I agree - if you're trying to attribute a group of people as "the" cause. Generalizations about people aren't always wrong, but they are tricky. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 BTW - I'm not offended by opinions, or by people who just make incorrect conclusions or correct (IMO) ones about groups of people. But having a single type of person having a 'cause' of bad behavior inside them is usually just too simplistic a model to stand up to scrutiny. I can take the conversation in any direction it needs to go. People usually quit before the end, though. Finding a single cause for bad behavior is usually a tower of babel type situation. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
hitops Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) BTW - I'm not offended by opinions, or by people who just make incorrect conclusions or correct (IMO) ones about groups of people. But having a single type of person having a 'cause' of bad behavior inside them is usually just too simplistic a model to stand up to scrutiny. I can take the conversation in any direction it needs to go. People usually quit before the end, though. Finding a single cause for bad behavior is usually a tower of babel type situation. Equally, 'there are a lot of factors' could be said about anything. At some point, you need to make conclusions based on the information you have, not stand in mental limbo about everything in existence in protest of the fact that you do not have perfect information. Since the dawn of its existence, Islam has been at war with its neighbors, excluding the earliest period when it was far too small a group to pose a threat to anyone. Most importantly, its founder both promoted and practiced it. He also explicitly suppressed the value of women and non-Muslims. Today, despite modernization and vast improvements and dissemination of knowledge including in the Islamic world, virtually every notable conflict involves Islam in some way. The same cannot be said of any other religion. Saying 'all religions do it' is like saying that driving a car and riding a motorbike while standing on one leg and doing a wheelie are 'both dangerous'. Technically true, but absurd to group together. Yes, at some point I'm sure that a Buddhist monk somewhere has harmed somebody. Edited October 23, 2015 by hitops Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 Well there's nothing that explains what is supposed to be different about this one religion. All I ever read us supposition that works backwards from a preset conclusion Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
hitops Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) Well there's nothing that explains what is supposed to be different about this one religion. All I ever read us supposition that works backwards from a preset conclusion I'm not talking about what is 'supposed' to be anything. I'm talking about what is on record, today, in western and middle societies. Edited October 23, 2015 by hitops Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 23, 2015 Report Posted October 23, 2015 I'm talking about what is on record, today, in western and middle societies. Right. That's called an observation. Left-of-centre people will tell you that poverty causes violence. I don't think that's true either, but they're using the same methods as you are. Basically, start with an observation, then pick a factor that's at play as the cause. In both cases, you can find people (ie. who follow the religion, or people who are poor) that don't succumb. You're better off admitting that it's (at best) a cofactor. The fact that it's the religion for a poor part of the world that is resource-rich could have something to do with it, for example. I'm not saying that it does. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
eyeball Posted October 24, 2015 Report Posted October 24, 2015 Maybe the immediate reaction to the dead child on the beach provoked a more emotional response. A more nuanced survey from the Toronto Star showed Canadians were far more divided, and more in support of Harper than the others. When the Star shows more support for Harper on a subject like this than other leaders I take that to be a survey free of bias. I'm also confident that if a new poll were taken it would find even less Canadians eager to import the same problems Europe is facing. I'm about as eager to open our doors to refugees as people sitting in Titanic lifeboats were eager to row back towards the 1500 people that were left in the water and for the same reason. Trudeau, like most people, probably imagine the world's just going through a little rough patch and that everything's going to be groovy once we fix a few things up. But no, we're on planet Titanic, there are not enough lifeboats and we're barrelling full speed ahead towards disaster. Our only hope is that Bonam and his homies reach the technological singularity and we manage to pull ourselves out of the fire or an alien rescue mission reaches us in time. I suspect Canadians were more pissed off at the mean-spiritedness and racism behind the reasons why Harper wanted to keep refugees out. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 24, 2015 Report Posted October 24, 2015 Right. That's called an observation. Left-of-centre people will tell you that poverty causes violence. I don't think that's true either, but they're using the same methods as you are. Basically, start with an observation, then pick a factor that's at play as the cause. ...You're better off admitting that it's (at best) a cofactor. Even that is too strong....at best there may be correlation...but not causation. Breaking down such claims into normative (prescriptive) vs. descriptive (empirical) statements helps to frame such assertions more objectively. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
G Huxley Posted October 24, 2015 Report Posted October 24, 2015 The West shouldn't have torn Syria and Iraq apart and then we wouldn't be facing this problem. More humans are the worst thing for the environment, but then if it was about the environment Iraq wouldn't have been invaded over oil. Quote
Bonam Posted October 24, 2015 Report Posted October 24, 2015 Our only hope is that Bonam and his homies reach the technological singularity and we manage to pull ourselves out of the fire or an alien rescue mission reaches us in time. Working on it! Quote
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