Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 We do have two classes. Terrorists and proper Canadians who don't threaten to blow this country to pieces! We have two classes Those who are Canadians for life no matter how bad they screw up, and those who are Canadians as long as they behave. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
angrypenguin Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 We have two classes Those who are Canadians for life no matter how bad they screw up, and those who are Canadians as long as they behave. Terrorism does not equal to screwing up. A terrorist tries to take the LIFE from people. I cannot believe people have that stance that a terrorist deserves to be Canadian. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 EDIT: The Conservatives were asked today if they would include rapists, child molesters etc - and the answer was no. They simply wanted to include terrorist acts as grounds to remove citizenship. I'm definitely for that and appalled the NDP/Liberal disagree. That may be true right this minute, but in 10,15 or 20 years it may very well change. What happens when the government in power needs to distract the public from economic and/or political problems and they decide to expand on this program? Today it is the conservatives and terrorists but 20 years down the road it could be some other party and Rapists and murderers, 40 years down the road it could be common criminals etc... Once there is a convenient whipping boy, it becomes easy to chip away at the rights of those individuals because the first step is already taken. It is not that big of a jump from terrorist to murderer and not too much of a jump from Murderer to rapists etc etc etc. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 I'm sure they would be butthurt, but if they don't have a way of revoking my [insert country here] citizenship, then they should find a way. If they don't have adequate legislation to deal with me, too bad. To me, I am Canadian first, but if I choose to harm Canada and I lose my citizenship as a result, I am for that. Tell me this, what happens if it is the other way around? A Pakistani-Canadian commits acts of terror in Pakistan, gets his citizenship revoked from Pakistan and shipped to Canada? And what is the criteria for stripping the citizenship? Convicted terrorists? Convicted by which nation? Just Canada or could it be convicted terrorist in any country? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) Proper Canadians who don't threaten to blow this country to pieces can hold as many citizenships as they want as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, get rid of them if possible. Proper Canadians who don't kill people in this country can hold as many citizenships as they want as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, get rid of them if possible. Proper Canadians who don't rape people in this country can hold as many citizenships as they want as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, get rid of them if possible. Proper Canadians who don't assault people in this country can hold as many citizenships as they want as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, get rid of them if possible. Proper Canadians who don't steal from people in this country can hold as many citizenships as they want as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, get rid of them if possible. Proper Canadians who don't break the speed limit in this country can hold as many citizenships as they want as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, get rid of them if possible. Edited October 3, 2015 by Signals.Cpl Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
angrypenguin Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Tell me this, what happens if it is the other way around? A Pakistani-Canadian commits acts of terror in Pakistan, gets his citizenship revoked from Pakistan and shipped to Canada? And what is the criteria for stripping the citizenship? Convicted terrorists? Convicted by which nation? Just Canada or could it be convicted terrorist in any country? I know full well what the repercussions might be. Firstly, Pakistan does not have this in place, so this argument is moot. If they did, and they forced us to have this convicted terrorist, then fine...I guess we're stuck with that person. On the other hand, if we find someone convicted with a Pakistan and Canadian passport, then hell, I want them in Pakistan and not here. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
dialamah Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Tell me this, what happens if it is the other way around? A Pakistani-Canadian commits acts of terror in Pakistan, gets his citizenship revoked from Pakistan and shipped to Canada? And what is the criteria for stripping the citizenship? Convicted terrorists? Convicted by which nation? Just Canada or could it be convicted terrorist in any country? All these countries stripping citizenship and deporting terrorists --- who is most likely to welcome these people? How hard is it to get a new identity or steal someone's identity and just return -- perhaps with better bomb making skills, more entrenched radicalism, a desire to sacrifice your life with as many as you can take with you. This does seem like a remarkably short-sighted policy. But hey, if history has proven anything, its that humans aren't really that bright. Quote
Guest Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 All these countries stripping citizenship and deporting terrorists --- who is most likely to welcome these people? How hard is it to get a new identity or steal someone's identity and just return -- perhaps with better bomb making skills, more entrenched radicalism, a desire to sacrifice your life with as many as you can take with you. This does seem like a remarkably short-sighted policy. But hey, if history has proven anything, its that humans aren't really that bright. Is that why you're against it? Because they might get better at killing people they don't know and come back? Quote
Gleason Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 All this debate and not a single link to any supporting laws. As always the devil is in the details. Would YOU like to have your citizenship stripped because you took a vacation or a work-related assignment to Syria, Pakistan, or Iran? Do you know how many Canadians have family members in countries that terrorists call home? I think all comments on this issue need to be reserved until the final wording of the bill is reviewed by all. Quote
cybercoma Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) Gleason, the full text of the bill can be found HERE.The Canadian Bar Association's criticisms of the bill can be found HERE.Edit: Pay particular attention to the section beginning on page 19 about expanded revocation. There's a number of points that they make, not the least of which being that the expanded revocation would not apply to acts committed in Canada, but only abroad. That means that the acts committed during the FLQ crisis would not have led to revocation, despite widespread consensus of this being a form of terrorism. They also give an argument about the political nature of the "terrorist" label, which around the world is used as a pejorative against liberation movements. Edited October 3, 2015 by cybercoma Quote
angrypenguin Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 All this debate and not a single link to any supporting laws. As always the devil is in the details. Would YOU like to have your citizenship stripped because you took a vacation or a work-related assignment to Syria, Pakistan, or Iran? Do you know how many Canadians have family members in countries that terrorists call home? I think all comments on this issue need to be reserved until the final wording of the bill is reviewed by all. Since when is any of that considered a terrorist act? Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Queenmandy85 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 All this debate and not a single link to any supporting laws. As always the devil is in the details. Would YOU like to have your citizenship stripped because you took a vacation or a work-related assignment to Syria, Pakistan, or Iran? Do you know how many Canadians have family members in countries that terrorists call home? I think all comments on this issue need to be reserved until the final wording of the bill is reviewed by all. Don't forget Ireland. I have distant relatives in Ireland. Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
Big Guy Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 The beauty of really dumb legislation is that subsequent governments can, and usually do, change it. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 I know full well what the repercussions might be. Firstly, Pakistan does not have this in place, so this argument is moot. I'm pretty sure that Pakistan can get a similar law fairly quickly… laws are not exclusive to the western nations. And if they don't have it now, the first couple of convicted CANADIAN terrorists send to Pakistan may light a fire under them to change the laws and it becomes a race to see who can revoke the citizenship faster…and I'm sorry to tell you but I think Pakistan will win most of the time since their government has a little more freedom of movement in such cases than the government of Canada at least for the moment. If they did, and they forced us to have this convicted terrorist, then fine...I guess we're stuck with that person. On the other hand, if we find someone convicted with a Pakistan and Canadian passport, then hell, I want them in Pakistan and not here. That is very nice, but the rest of the world would wise up and make similar laws because no one wants to be holding on to the trash at the end of the day. This is nothing more than a way to kick out our problems to countries that have plenty of their own problems with out us sending them our own. This is a case where fear mongering presents a "solution" that marginalizes a large segment of Canadian citizens without solving a thing. I believe in fixing my own mess, if a Canadian citizen commits acts of terror then that citizen should be out problem not the problem of another nation. You argument seems to be based on Canada washing its hands of the actions of its own citizens and dumping them on others. This is not to make us safer this is a race to disaster for us because once other nations start receiving out problems they will get those same laws, and we will have to expedite the revoking of citizenship in order to not be the one holding the bag at the end. What do you think happens when we start cutting corners to be the first to revoke citizenship? And what happens if the other country doesn't want to accept the convicted terrorist even if we revoke their Canadian citizenship? Who will force them to accept our trash? The UN? They can't force two 4 year olds to stop fighting let alone one nation to accept the terrorists of another. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Argus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 I think it's going to tear the country apart when Quebec runs afoul of the SCC. I hope it tears the country apart I mean. Not at all. Quebec will simply use the notwithstanding clause. It's done it before, and Quebecers have no issue with that. As for the rest of the country, they really don't care. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 We have two classes Those who are Canadians for life no matter how bad they screw up, and those who are Canadians as long as they behave. Your brother is your brother for life no matter what a butthead he is. If our new friend turns out to be a butthead, though, I bet you'll drop him quick. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
The_Squid Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 the first couple of convicted CANADIAN terrorists You are missing the point completely. This is not a Jordanian being sent back to Jordan. This is a Canadian-born citizen being stripped of citizenship. This seems like a really obvious and glaring point that seems to fly over conservatives' heads... but maybe it is a bit too nuanced for some people to understand... Quote
The_Squid Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Your brother is your brother for life no matter what a butthead he is.If our new friend turns out to be a butthead, though, I bet you'll drop him quick. "New friend"? Did you miss the point that this guy was born in Canada? (see my post above) Quote
Argus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) Twenty-two countries in Europe allow denaturalization for terrorism or other behaviour contrary to the national interest, according to a 2014 paper by University of Ottawa law professor Craig Forcese. These include Britain, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Spain, Switzerland and the Netherlands. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/how-law-to-strip-terrorists-of-citizenship-fits-into-global-picture/article26640140/ Edited October 3, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
angrypenguin Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Twenty-two countries in Europe allow denaturalization for terrorism or other behaviour contrary to the national interest, according to a 2014 paper by University of Ottawa law professor Craig Forcese. These include Britain, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Spain, Switzerland and the Netherlands. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/how-law-to-strip-terrorists-of-citizenship-fits-into-global-picture/article26640140/ Thanks for sharing! Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
The_Squid Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Twenty-two countries in Europe allow denaturalization for terrorism or other behaviour contrary to the national interest, according to a 2014 paper by University of Ottawa law professor Craig Forcese. These include Britain, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Spain, Switzerland and the Netherlands. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/how-law-to-strip-terrorists-of-citizenship-fits-into-global-picture/article26640140/ The article doesn't mention whether they can strip people of their citizenship who were born in the country. It's a significant distinction. And it's a glaring omission on the part of the article. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Your brother is your brother for life no matter what a butthead he is. If our new friend turns out to be a butthead, though, I bet you'll drop him quick. Unlike you apparently, I believe to take care of my own mess rather than export it to another country. If you cannot give me a citizenship equal to yours, then why would you expect me to give loyalty to this country? Why am I less of a citizen then Khadr just because I was born somewhere else? Why would you expect immigrants to integrate themselves in Canadian society if they will never be true Canadians? I have earned my citizenship while a lot of people born in this country have done nothing to earn their citizenship but be born in this country. If you want immigrants to be loyal to Canada then Canada has to be loyal to them as well. And this is not loyalty, this states that my citizenship is less than yours no matter what I dol Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 You are missing the point completely. This is not a Jordanian being sent back to Jordan. This is a Canadian-born citizen being stripped of citizenship. This seems like a really obvious and glaring point that seems to fly over conservatives' heads... but maybe it is a bit too nuanced for some people to understand... And what point am I missing? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
angrypenguin Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Unlike you apparently, I believe to take care of my own mess rather than export it to another country. The problem is that we can't take care of our own mess. One of the convicted terrorists is eligible for parole next year. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 The problem is that we can't take care of our own mess. One of the convicted terrorists is eligible for parole next year. So your solution is to send them to another country? So instead of making laws that are tougher on crime we marginalize 7 million people? Great Idea… What happens if before he gets released from prison he forfeits his non-Canadian citizenship? How does that make us safe? What if the other nation doesn't want him? Or what if they revoke his citizenship as well while he is still in Canada? What do we do then? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
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