angrypenguin Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Can you guarantee that no new conditions will be added 5 years from now with a different PM? What about 15? Or maybe 50 years from now? If new circumstances arrive then I'm sure the law will be changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) If new circumstances arrive then I'm sure the law will be changed. The law's being challenged now. And for good reason. It creates a different set of punishment for people committing the same crimes. Edited October 3, 2015 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Why not rapists and murderers? Why not pedophiles too? Throw in anyone who is convicted of fraud for good reason You drink and drive well outta the country you go. We don't deal properly with many of the above mentioned crimes, so why don't we revoke citizenship for them as well? One step at a time...plus, Canada is hardly trailblazing the whole terrorists getting their citizenship revoked. Rapists and such don't cause widespread death. Toronto 18 would have killed as many people as those who died on 9/11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 The law's being challenged now.. All part of an evolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) Its a different punishment because the person is different from someone with sole citizenship. Gosh really? Edited October 3, 2015 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Its a different punishment because the person is different from someone with sole citizenship.Guess that was too hard to fathom? It's because of international law that this happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Its a different punishment because the person is different from someone with sole citizenship.Guess that was too hard to fathom? Gee, I guess we should just give out different punishment based on personal characteristics. Maybe we can string up some black people for shoplifting because you know....they're different than white people, so why not have different punishments for them? Didn't you say in the past that you're a lawyer? Did you fall asleep in your legal ethics classes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 It's because of international law that this happens. The most international law says is that a country shouldn't render someone stateless. So the Tories are not doing that, but they are creating a two tier citizenship system; one in which someone who has only Canadian citizenship cannot, by the very principle you invoke, have their citizenship revoked, and another for those with dual citizenship. One thing I can see happening is a lot of accused individuals renouncing their citizenship in another nation, so while this great and wonderful law may have had some early successes, I think it's likely to be rendered pretty largely useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 The most international law says is that a country shouldn't render someone stateless. So the Tories are not doing that, but they are creating a two tier citizenship system; one in which someone who has only Canadian citizenship cannot, by the very principle you invoke, have their citizenship revoked, and another for those with dual citizenship. One thing I can see happening is a lot of accused individuals renouncing their citizenship in another nation, so while this great and wonderful law may have had some early successes, I think it's likely to be rendered pretty largely useless. Yes and as a new stock Canadian I'm fine with it and support it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Yes and as a new stock Canadian I'm fine with it and support it. In favor of law that is likely to be rendered moot as accused terrorists dump their dual citizenship in other countries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) If new circumstances arrive then I'm sure the law will be changed. So in 20 years or 30 years people born outside of Canada could be stripped of their citizenship for voting for the wrong party? Practicing the wrong religion? Holding the "wrong" set of political beliefs? Once you divide the population in two distinct camps: Canadians and fake-Canadians you open the door for politicians to abuse that law for their own purposes. If the economy is bad but you want reelection you can point out how many immigrants are in jail for murder… strip them of their citizenship to distract the people from the economy. Donald Trump talks a lot about Mexicans, illegal aliens and big wall on the border but in the grand scheme of things that is way down on the list of issues that face the US. The same arguments made for this law can be used to expand it to include all the way down revoking citizenship for minor crimes like speeding illegal parking etc. You are also telling new generations of immigrants that they will NEVER be real Canadians therefore why should they even try to assimilate. This law hurts Canada but does not do a thing to improve our security simply because those who are in Iraq and Syria fighting for ISIS can forfeit their other citizenship before they go and join terrorists. So this law solves none of the problems it is claimed to solve but creates a whole host of other issues that are open for abuse by subsequent governments. Edited October 3, 2015 by Signals.Cpl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 One step at a time...plus, Canada is hardly trailblazing the whole terrorists getting their citizenship revoked. Rapists and such don't cause widespread death. Toronto 18 would have killed as many people as those who died on 9/11 I'm not that shortsighted, I know when someone is trying to chip away at my rights. I support the conservatives on a whole host of issues but this is the one that is forcing me to vote for someone else, if they want to make me a second class citizen I will use my right to vote to stop them. So Khadr and Zehaf-Bibeau would have been safe from deportation if they were fake-Canadians like me, since they only killed one person each...right? But then they are both Real Canadians so they wouldn't have to worry that is if Zehaf-Bibeau was alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 It's because of international law that this happens. Who enforces that international law? Is the US going to invade us or are we worried about the big bad UN? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Unlike you apparently, I believe to take care of my own mess rather than export it to another country. Who says it's our mess? If some jackoff comes here on false pretenses, and turns out to be a religious wacko, how does that become some sort of moral obligation on my part to take care of him for the rest of his life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Its a different punishment because the person is different from someone with sole citizenship. Gosh really? Why stop there? Why not apply it to all parts of Canadian law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 ISo Khadr and Zehaf-Bibeau would have been safe from deportation if they were fake-Canadians like me, since they only killed one person each...right? But then they are both Real Canadians so they wouldn't have to worry that is if Zehaf-Bibeau was alive. Khadr has never been a Canadian, except on paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Why not rapists and murderers? Why not pedophiles too? Throw in anyone who is convicted of fraud for good reason… You drink and drive well outta the country you go. We don't deal properly with many of the above mentioned crimes, so why don't we revoke citizenship for them as well? Don't forget those who make hysterical internet posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Who says it's our mess? If some jackoff comes here on false pretenses, and turns out to be a religious wacko, how does that become some sort of moral obligation on my part to take care of him for the rest of his life? If he lies on his application that is one thing, if he is given citizenship he becomes our problem. Citizenship once granted should be final, once you put conditions on the citizenship of one group only not for everyone you punish and marginalize the 7 million loyal Canadians and it opens the door for abuse by subsequent governments. Also no one has answered what happens if those terrorists forfeit their other citizenship? Or the other country refuses to take them back, what do we do then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Khadr has never been a Canadian, except on paper. So he wasn't born in Canada? Where was he born? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Don't forget those who make hysterical internet posts. It natural progression, once you see you can do it for terrorists and you need a distraction you take it one step further. Once you get the wedge in, you can do as you please and idiots will keep supporting the idea because they cannot see past their nose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 If he lies on his application that is one thing, if he is given citizenship he becomes our problem. Citizenship once granted should be final, once you put conditions on the citizenship of one group only not for everyone you punish and marginalize the 7 million loyal Canadians and it opens the door for abuse by subsequent governments. Okay, how about if we execute him, then? That make you happier? We can even throw his Canadian passport into the grave with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 It natural progression, once you see you can do it for terrorists and you need a distraction you take it one step further. No, it's nonsense. It's ludicrous. If you can't win the arguments on its merits stretching it to ridiculous extremes won't help you. Oh, we're going to fine people for speeding!? Well why not just execute them then!? Same thing! Bah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 So he wasn't born in Canada? Where was he born? If a cat has kittens on the stove, does that make them cookies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Okay, how about if we execute him, then? That make you happier? We can even throw his Canadian passport into the grave with him.As long as you treat everyone equal I have no quarrel. I earned my citizenship, a lot of people born in this country have done nothing to deserve theirs aside from being born here and I don't see why I should be viewed as a lesser Canadian simply because some idiot somewhere wants to pretend that he is doing something. It is a law that hurts 7 million Canadians and yet will solve absolutely nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 No, it's nonsense. It's ludicrous. If you can't win the arguments on its merits stretching it to ridiculous extremes won't help you. Oh, we're going to fine people for speeding!? Well why not just execute them then!? Same thing! Bah. Give me 100% guarantee that this law will never ever be extended past revoking citizenship for terrorists. If I wanted to commit acts of terror I will forfeit my second citizenship and thwart this law. Don't you feel safe? This big bad law can be defeated with a little planning... I'm not comparing this law and its division of citizenship to the holocaust but I want to ask one simple question: If we told the German people in 1935 that Hitler will kill 6 million Jews, what do you think their reaction would be? I bet it would be something like this: No, it's nonsense. It's ludicrous. If you can't win the arguments on its merits stretching it to ridiculous extremes won't help you. If path from harassment and racism to genocide is so easy to travel what on earth makes you believe that one political party after another will not chip away at the rights of some of it's citizens? Once the law is in place every subsequent amendment is that much easier since after all there is a precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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