To defeat terrorism, we must leave the Middle-East

bush_cheney2004 · September 23, 2015

Canada's Liberal party played the same political games during the run-up to Gulf War I. Chretien opposed military involvement to support UN action against Saddam in Kuwait, then he "changed his mind" when finding himself on the wrong side of the issue.

...Four days later the House of Commons debated a government motion: “That this House reaffirms its support of the United Nations in ending the aggression by Iraq against Kuwait.” A new MP arrived in the House that very day, just in time to take part in the debate: the winner of the by-election in Beauséjour, N.B., Jean Chrétien.

The Liberal Opposition leader, finally back in the House after five years away, took a surprising position.

“If there is a war, we think they will have to be called back,” he told the Toronto Star the day before the debate, referring to the huge fighting force then gathering strength.

“Really, Canadians have had enough of these ambiguities and playing the dice on the table without telling Canadians exactly what the situation is,” he said. “It is not the time to play with words. Should we have Canadians involved in war, yes or no? . . . The reality is, we’re debating war tomorrow, and our answer is no to a war at this moment.”

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/canada-in-iraq-the-chretien-precedent/

GostHacked · September 23, 2015

What are you saying it is unfathomable to support

---SNIP---

....and then once we have eliminated all the above what about products that can kill do we ban them as well....

I bet a lot of that technology could have come about due to peaceful societies working together, without needing the catalyst of conflict to advance their goals. Ideologies seem to get n the way of all of that.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Charles Anthony
[---SNIP---]

Moonlight Graham · September 24, 2015

Nope...you have neither the experience, standing, or resources to do so.

LOL you know this how? You have absolutely no idea who I am or what I've done for a living. My name is Thomas Mulcair, prove me otherwise!

Army Guy · September 30, 2015

I bet a lot of that technology could have come about due to peaceful societies working together, without needing the catalyst of conflict to advance their goals. Ideologies seem to get n the way of all of that.

You can take the high ground if you wish, but conflict is what has pushed our advances that much is a fact....We could also solve alot of problems through peaceful means....but man COULD do alot of things....if he was not prone to solve issues with violence....that is not going to change anytime soon....maybe one day we'll cure cancer, maybe even the common cold....

GostHacked · September 30, 2015

You can take the high ground if you wish, but conflict is what has pushed our advances that much is a fact....We could also solve alot of problems through peaceful means....but man COULD do alot of things....if he was not prone to solve issues with violence....that is not going to change anytime soon....maybe one day we'll cure cancer, maybe even the common cold....

I never claim to take the high road. But our government likes to portray themselves taking the high road while supporting terrorism to take down another nation's recognized leader.. all while bitching about foreign entities doing exactly the same.

What reason is blinding you from the irony?

eyeball · September 30, 2015

You can take the high ground if you wish, but conflict is what has pushed our advances that much is a fact....We could also solve alot of problems through peaceful means....but man COULD do alot of things....if he was not prone to solve issues with violence....that is not going to change anytime soon....maybe one day we'll cure cancer, maybe even the common cold....

Man this and man that...give me a break.

Conflating our entire species with the very small number of wealthy powerful influential people almost always responsible for causing organizing and funding the violence is just wrong. It's an irrational deluded view that masks reality and dilutes culpability to the point of acquittal.

Big Guy · September 30, 2015

The OP is "To defeat terrorism, we must leave the Middle-East" - I am starting to agree. In Afghanistan, the Russians got whooped and left it to us. We went in and $trillions later we are still there.

Now the Russians are back into Syria. Maybe we should return the favor, accept that we just got whooped, leave and give it to the Russians to spend $trillions for a few years.

dre · September 30, 2015

You can take the high ground if you wish, but conflict is what has pushed our advances that much is a fact....We could also solve alot of problems through peaceful means....but man COULD do alot of things....if he was not prone to solve issues with violence....that is not going to change anytime soon....maybe one day we'll cure cancer, maybe even the common cold....

Any endeavor that demands technology will result in advances. There has been a mountain of new technologies and materials coming out of various space programs as well.

But yes... if you invest a trillion dollars in the best way to blow holes in the ground... then youre going to see some useful r&d result from it... but at the end of the day all you did was blow holes in the ground.

eyeball · September 30, 2015

Any examples of new technologies stemming from War on Terror R&D?

There's been lots of new rhetorical devices but that's about it.

dre · September 30, 2015

Any examples of new technologies stemming from War on Terror R&D?

There's been lots of new rhetorical devices but that's about it.

I think they came up with some great new anal rape devices in Abu Graib! No to mention perfecting the manufacturing process for gigantic "mission accomplished" banners!

Edited September 30, 2015 by dre

Rue · October 1, 2015

Well now anal devices. Yep that sure addresses the topic.

Army Guy · October 3, 2015

Man this and man that...give me a break.

Conflating our entire species with the very small number of wealthy powerful influential people almost always responsible for causing organizing and funding the violence is just wrong. It's an irrational deluded view that masks reality and dilutes culpability to the point of acquittal.

Your comments make sense to me, blame it all on the man in power, and yet turn on the news and tell me you can blame all that violence on the men in power.....Man has been killing each other since they picked up the first stick.....it's not the governments fault, violence has always been there.....

eyeball · October 3, 2015

Your comments make sense to me, blame it all on the man in power, and yet turn on the news and tell me you can blame all that violence on the men in power.....Man has been killing each other since they picked up the first stick.....it's not the governments fault, violence has always been there.....

Blame it all....did I say blame it all? No I didn't. Go back and look yourself if you don't believe me.

I very clearly talked about violence that is organized by wealthy powerful influential people. Why are you conflating that now with the ridiculously incomparable pedestrian domestic violence we see reports of on TV?

You also keep saying Man. What about all the women and kids...you're comfortable conflating institutionalized organized violence with the violence they commit? It's nuts.

GostHacked · October 3, 2015

Any examples of new technologies stemming from War on Terror R&D?

There's been lots of new rhetorical devices but that's about it.

Sonic and heat weaponry have been used in Iraq first before they were used on US citizens... oh and drones.

GostHacked · October 3, 2015

Your comments make sense to me, blame it all on the man in power, and yet turn on the news and tell me you can blame all that violence on the men in power.....Man has been killing each other since they picked up the first stick.....it's not the governments fault, violence has always been there.....

Actually those men don't pick up the guns. They get people like you to do their dirty work.

Rue · October 3, 2015

Army does your dirty work Ghost,

Your freedom, your privileges, everything you take for granted is what comes from Army. For you to think otherwise is testament to your sheltered and self centered cushy life. Your existence did not just come about. It came at a price, the price of the lives of soldiers long before you were even a dirty thought-dying so you could come on forums and present yourself as an elitist who thinks his standard of life just came from nowhere.

Rue · October 3, 2015

To equate what Canada is doing with terrorism is I would argue something only someone sheltered from terrorism, soft with the luxury of Canadian life could say. No one who has witnessed or survived a terrorist attack would talk like that. To equate a Canadian soldier to a terrorist epitomizes the very soft, sheltered, elitist, privileged lifestyle I have come to loath. I thank every moment of my life to the soldiers and other front line defenders who enable it.

To any of you calling Canadian armed forces personnel terrorists you really do need to be pulled from your soft complacence and dumped in Aleppo.

GostHacked · October 3, 2015

Army does your dirty work Ghost,

Your freedom, your privileges, everything you take for granted is what comes from Army. For you to think otherwise is testament to your sheltered and self centered cushy life. Your existence did not just come about. It came at a price, the price of the lives of soldiers long before you were even a dirty thought-dying so you could come on forums and present yourself as an elitist who thinks his standard of life just came from nowhere.

It's ok if you don't understand I am saying.

To equate what Canada is doing with terrorism is I would argue something only someone sheltered from terrorism, soft with the luxury of Canadian life could say. No one who has witnessed or survived a terrorist attack would talk like that. To equate a Canadian soldier to a terrorist epitomizes the very soft, sheltered, elitist, privileged lifestyle I have come to loath. I thank every moment of my life to the soldiers and other front line defenders who enable it.

To any of you calling Canadian armed forces personnel terrorists you really do need to be pulled from your soft complacence and dumped in Aleppo.

Right, so when we bomb against ISIS it's a good thing. But when Russia does it, it's a bad thing. I am also wondering why you are silent of the stuff in Yemen, Tunisia, Libya and the oppression in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE all while complaining about Iran.

So a couple decades of bombing and pacifying has brought destruction and displacement of people and then some get all upset when those people we are trying to save by bombing end up coming here in droves for safety. But instead of taking them in, we are holding them back at the border.

We wanna help, but not THAT bad.. right? Let's do a few more airstrikes, that should solve things. And then we 'wonder' they can't get their stuff together or build new homes. Dumb.

Big Guy · October 4, 2015

Those crazy left wing zealot cowards continue to bray about leaving the Middle East to local civil wars;

“Personally, I’ve been looking at the different players and I’ve been watching Assad, and I’m looking at Assad and saying maybe he’s better than the kind of people that we’re supposed to be backing because we don’t even know who we’re backing. We have no idea.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/let-him-fight-isil-trump-gives-putin-an-a-for-leadership-after-russias-entry-into-Syria

He also said that the Middle East was in far better shape before the USA got involved and took out Saddam, Gaddafi et al.

Who was that crazy left wing zealot coward? It was that front running Republican candidate for the President of the United States - Donald Trump.

Michael Hardner · October 4, 2015

When strong-man dictatorships fall, you often see chaos as a result. Is that really a reason to support them ?

Rue · October 4, 2015

I understand what you are saying Ghost too well. If you can't tell the difference between what Canada is doing and what ISIL is doing and suggest as you did our Canadian armed forces are terrorists I can only conclude your opinions come about because you hahve not lived with terror. Its not an insult to say that or that you have a cushy life you take for granted when I say that. We all do. Me included. We forget or take for granted or just accept what we have and live in. It came at a price.

I contend you insult the Canadian armed forces and the ideals they stand for and put their lives on the line to uphold, so you and I can live as we do.

I contend your equation suggests our armed forces use terror as a means to conquer and impose political will no different than ISIL . I because you don't understand what terrorism is. You have not lived it, witnessed it, seen the aftermath of iti. That is not an insult, its a fact.

Your lack of first hand experience prevents you from understanding Canadian soldiers or why they would never do what terrorists do.

I contend l you hold them culpable as terrorists because they try kill terrorists. What a ridiculous assumption. One must ask someone who makes such an assumption...well what do you think? Do you think its possible to take out a terrorist by kissing or hugging them or better still pretending they are no longer there?

Terrorists are empowered by weakness, silence, lack of response. I know that because I have listened to their glee when there is no response to their terror.

We differ. Your world sees anyone who stands up to terrorists and is trying to protect civilians from them as terrorists precisely because you choose to equate terror with any kind of armed response that may hurt civilians. I argue you think that way because if you had to be a soldier and react to terrorists on the ground or were a victim of a terrorist your perspective would be far different.. No you don't hug a man who rapes someone. No a rapist doesn't go away because you choose to ignore him.

I contend in response to Big Guy's continuing comments that they showcase how arm chair experts who have never been to the Middle East talk as if they understand it but have no clue how it operates and so make trivializing and absurd statements like the ME was better off with Sadaam. They have no clue what it was like to live under him and they claim to be experts on it? Better than what?

What type of person tries to argue living under Sadaam was acceptable and "better than"? Better than what? What next iys better to have aids than colon cancer? Is that the kind of pitty remark that makes sense? Oh I know it. Hitler made the trains run on time, he wasn't all bad. He got people jobs.

What next to do we apologize for Hitler, Stalin, Missolini, Tojo, Pol Pot, Mao?

Better than what?

Did Bug Guy suffer from what Sadaam was doing? Does this same expert who waxes poetic on how Iran shoud be our ally, understand what it was and remains like to walk the streets of Baghdad or Tehran? Doe shave have a clue what the Mukbharat are and how they operate or how the religious police operate?

Did Bug guy witness the killing of students, Zoroastreans, feminists, gays, trade unionists? Does he know any of the 120,000 students who gave their lives fighting for freedom in Iran? Better than what? Does he have aa clue about the genocide of kurds, the village to village massacres committed by both Iran and Iraq?. Of course not.

I do not have anything but contempt for people living in Canada, driving their suv's and who have no concept what it is to see a body blow uo indiscriminately or having their lovely suburb or home invaded at night, their wives and children raped and lit on fire telling me the soldiers of my country are terrorists or regimes that allow such terror and brutality are BETTER THAN anything, any damn thing.

Excuse me but it makes me bloody grateful to the soldiers and police of Canada that my grandparents escaped to Canada to get away from that horror \big Guy dare describes as BETTER THAN.

Excuse me 6 million of my people died and more would have without these soldiers standing up to Hitler as the US then did with Hussein when he was gassing Kurds en mase. Do not lecture me that gassing kurds en masse is BETTER THAN.

I witnessed terrorism first hand in the ME. It kills more Muslims than Israelis. Excuse me it makes me bloody grateful for the Canadian Armed Forces and what it has done and will do so I can live as I do now walking the streets without fear and able to express my opinions.

Isn't it ironic those who apologize for Iran and Iraq and the terrorism of the ME referring to it as BETTER THAN demand we take in Syrians? Why? If its BETTER THAN, why don't these refugees sand and support Iran, ISIL or Assad, hmmmm? What utter b.s.The same people apologizing for terror and equating our armed forces as terrorists for trying to stop the killing of civilians, in the next breath demand we take in refugees.

What kind of reasoning is it that says ignore people shooting at innocent civilians just take in the people running from it.

What madness is that?. Hey don't arrest the rapist-let him be. He'll stop raping if you just leave him alone. Brilliant.

The tradition of Canada's armed forces is a proud one. It has enabled the child of immigrants and refugees like me to come to this country and cherish all that democracy offers. I stand by7 these soldiers. Their for the grace of God go they and not I.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Rue

Rue · October 4, 2015

The reasoning that Russia should be able to do what the West does which is now being advanced on this thread is meaningless. Using that reason the people who argue that should be calling Russians terrorists and chastizing them no different then they do France, the US, etc. They won't. The silence is tell tale.

Big Guy · October 4, 2015

When strong-man dictatorships fall, you often see chaos as a result. Is that really a reason to support them ?

I believe any nation supports who/what is best for that nation. When the social organization of a nation is a dictatorship and you want to have any relationship with that nation you deal with who is in charge.

When a dictatorship is overthrown and the populace, through numbers and force of arms, forms another social/political organization, then we decide if we want to engage them or not. The people make those decisions through a civil war and we respect their decision.

Our problem is that we seem to think that we have the right and obligation to change other nations governing structure "for their own good" and more towards something friendly to us. The people will decide in the end.

Case in point - We "rescue" the Iraqi people by taking out Saddam and try to replace him with different puppets accountable to us. More civil war and thousands of our soldiers dead and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilian deaths later - Iraq joins the Iran, Syria, Russia coalition and thumbs its nose at us.

Do you get the message that we are not wanted there?

Michael Hardner · October 4, 2015

Our problem is that we seem to think that we have the right and obligation to change other nations governing structure "for their own good" and more towards something friendly to us. The people will decide in the end.

Actually, "we" act in our self-interest, or out of moral obligation in obvious cases. I think that's a better way to describe it.

Understanding that the situation is confusing, there is still plenty of moral weight behind the idea that countries can and should intervene in internal disputes in some cases.

Big Guy · October 4, 2015

...

Understanding that the situation is confusing, there is still plenty of moral weight behind the idea that countries can and should intervene in internal disputes in some cases.

When one "intervenes" then one releases the genie. We then have to "come between" two forces for a reason. If the reason is moral, then what right do we have to instil our morality on other sovereign nations?

We then play a part in the conclusion of the conflict - and all of the subsequent consequences and the "moral" responsibility to fix what we helped break. It is easy to jump in and assist victory with a large superiority of might. It is the fix it part where the problems occur.