To defeat terrorism, we must leave the Middle-East

[bush_cheney2004]

Arguments that are correct are always relevant.

OK...congratulations on being "correct".....and irrelevant. Terrorism is not impressed with your argument, and neither are the foreign policies of many nations, including Canada.

[GostHacked]

"Mission Accomplished."

[Moonlight Graham]

We don't need to 'control' it. All the West has ever sought there was stability to ensure the West's oil supplies kept flowing. And it has generally been quite succesful at that. The Russians and Chinese, having far fewer scruples, would manage it even better, except they would ensure the oil flowed to them first.

if we seek stability there, we've been doing an incredibly horrible job. We seek access to oil markets and contracting, we seek war so defense companies can make money, we seek instability so that the balance of regional power remains in our (and our ME allies') favour and also so our defense companies can make money selling arms to ME countries and militias (oops!). When you weight the benefits against the costs, it only benefits a few in the West, and it doesn't benefit Canada's national interests overall, including security. I don't want my taxes going to this BS anymore when it actually harms us.

Also, oil has a global price, so more oil flowing anywhere is good for us. The vast majority of our oil doesn't come from the Middle East anyways. Going to war over imaginary hypothetical future scenarios is stupid anyways. See Iraq and Vietnam.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

[bush_cheney2004]

..... I don't want my taxes going to this BS anymore when it actually harms us.

There are lots of other things people don't want their taxes supporting too...so what ?

...See Iraq and Vietnam.

Canada made a bundle on both.

[Moonlight Graham]

Now using your label, if I am a Jewish Zionist and therefore am slurred with the stereotype that I want continuous war in the ME as you have posted then this must mean someone who agrees with your policy of isiolationism mut be a Muslim, anti Israeli and want the ME conquered by Muslim extremism. Hey now, see how that works?

I didn't stereotype you. From all your previous posts, I discerned you were a Jew and a Zionist, that's fine. Here's your post I replied to: "Moonlight you beat that dead horse but It won't get up. The boogy man is real and he won't go away no matter where you hide or no matter how much you try close your eyes and block your ears. Boo."

You obviously disagree with me. You support the West and Canada using military intervention against radical Islamist terrorists in the ME, right? My point was the war on terror in the ME is militarily unwinnable (beyond nuking every Sunni region), and therefore anyone who supports it (as you do) is supporting perpetual warfare in the ME.

By the way I never have stated I want constant military intervention in the ME. That's your false inference baed on your stereotype of aa Jew Zionist. I have in fact repeatedly stated that I believe in strategic, limited, elite, anti-terrorist attacks that strike at the heart of terrorism and NOT conventional military intervention is the best solution. Your stereotype is a crock. I have consistently argued conventional war does not work on terrorism.

Airstrikes won't defeat Islamist terrorists. A full-scale ground war in Iraq and Afghanistan didn't even defeat them. They'll use guerrilla tactics, ie: hiding among civilians etc.

Your denial you are an isolationist is also a crock. It is exactly what your position is by saying hands off the ME.

I'm an isolationist in the ME, for the most part yes. I'm not an isolationist or pacifist generally though. Every situation is different. If North Korea attacked Canada tomorrow we would respond militarily. If Russia attacked or invaded Britain we would help defend Britain. But I probably wouldn't condone regime change in either country, I would condone defending the sovereign territory and making it safe, while possibility responding witl some kind of proportional military retribution to show them & the world if you attack Canada or its allies, there will be consequences.

You blame all its problems on the West and lol Zionist Jews right? Its all our fault hmmmm? Not a problem in the ME until Zionist Jews or before them colonialists showed up-that is your thesis. You've repeated it until doomsday only its patently absurd. Muslim on Muslim terrorism has existed as long as the religion has existed and pre-existed formal Islam. Trying to revise history to make it appear the ME was nirvana until some damn albinos and then some Jews showed up is a crock.

I never said I blamed the West or Jews for all of the problems in the ME. If you read, I said that we're just making it worse. The Sunni-Shia schism didn't start after WWI. Please stop putting words in my mouth and jumping to conclusions.

We Jews come from the ME and have always lived there and have always been subject to Christian and Muslim attacks. Its nothing new for us. In your world we just suddenly appeared and cause problems. This is why I consider your comments a joke. You are woefully ignorant of Jewish history and the Hebrew people who pre-existed the very people engaging in terrorism you blame us for.

Again, I never said such a thing. My stance on Israel, again, is that they're ultimately free to do whatever they want, even if Canada may not agree with it all. We've helped our Israeli friends for a long time, supported them setting up a state, sold them arms to defend themselves etc. It's time for Israel to stand on its own legs now. The ME is a hornet's nest. If Israelis want a state in such a dangerous region so badly they're going to have to defend and fund themselves, which they're perfectly capable of.

You are as wrong as it gets about ME history. Terrorism has always been a fact. It won't ever end. At best as I have argued time and time again it can be contained.

I agree, it won't ever end, not in my lifetime. That's why I say we get out and let them fight amongst themselves. If they're to be contained, the other regional powers can do it. Iran and Israel aren't going to allow a radical Sunni caliphate dominate the region and swallow them up.

It won't end until the Muslim world denounces terror as a means to express political opinion. Islamic society across the world is not close to that realization. They are still in an era where the majority of their people are illiterate and depend on mullahs to tell them how to think. Those mullahs are all decentralized with the majority practicing a rigid fundamentalist totalitarian take on life similar to where Christianity was 500 years ago and Jews 2,000 years ago. That Sir is a fact and your snap shot and wishful denial of terrorism by ignoring it won't make it go away.

Exactly, I agree! It's going to take hundreds of years before the ME smartens up. I don't think it's a good idea to fight them perpetually until that happens. Canada is fairly safe right now given our geography, even safer if we give the Muslims living here much less reason to swear jihad against us.

The world is connected today by internet and cell. The days of hiding from terrorists are over. They live next door to you and they are waiting to blow you up real good.

I don't think any Westerner has ever died because a jihadist hacked into their cell or router and blew their faces off. If it happens, then just make phones/internet more secure. Much easier and less costly than war. They want to blow us up because we blow them up, kill their friends and family, assassinate their leaders, install puppet regimes, desecrate their holy lands, steal or exploit their resources etc. If another country did that to yours, would you want to blow them up too? i probably would. The reason Islamic terrorists aren't attacking Japan is simply because they have no reason to.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....I'm an isolationist in the ME, for the most part yes. I'm not an isolationist or pacifist generally though. Every situation is different. If North Korea attacked Canada tomorrow we would respond militarily.

Oh no....that would be very wasteful and not winnable. Let Canada fight it's own useless air and ground war in Asia. Don't need another Vietnam.

[WIP]

if we seek stability there, we've been doing an incredibly horrible job. We seek access to oil markets and contracting, we seek war so defense companies can make money, we seek instability so that the balance of regional power remains in our (and our ME allies') favour and also so our defense companies can make money selling arms to ME countries and militias (oops!). When you weight the benefits against the costs, it only benefits a few in the West, and it doesn't benefit Canada's national interests overall, including security. I don't want my taxes going to this BS anymore when it actually harms us.

I don't know what WE seek! But our Government seeks to be part of the same American Empire that England and Australia have signed up with. And I agree with your basic premise that the troubles for the west in the Middle East are interwoven with the demands of running an empire....keeping the flow of oil moving from Saudi and the Gulf States, and propping up their corrupt useful idiot dictators that are hated and despised by the people living there. How does America and us also now expect to win any so called "War on terror" when the primary motivation for terrorism and terrorists is resentment and hatred of foreign invaders controlling their nations and sucking their resources out of the ground with little or no benefit for most of the people who live there?

[bush_cheney2004]

..... How does America and us also now expect to win any so called "War on terror" when the primary motivation for terrorism and terrorists is resentment and hatred of foreign invaders controlling their nations and sucking their resources out of the ground with little or no benefit for most of the people who live there?

The same way that Canada has done it for First Nations since forever. They learned it from "England".

[Moonlight Graham]

Oh no....that would be very wasteful and not winnable. Let Canada fight it's own useless air and ground war in Asia. Don't need another Vietnam.

I clearly said we shouldn't do regime change, which would mean an occupation and protracted war...which can often be unwinnable Defend our borders, limited offensive to punish and remove imminent threats, go home.

[Topaz]

Going into the ME and taking out Hussein by GW, was the worse thing to happen to the world and just look at what the ME is today and how many people have been killed for what??? GW started all this and if I were one of those people being forced to leave my country by ISIS and others , I would be very angry at the US and other NATO countries for destroying the ME.

[GostHacked]

Going into the ME and taking out Hussein by GW, was the worse thing to happen to the world and just look at what the ME is today and how many people have been killed for what???

Don't worry the trolls know that this is correct.

[bush_cheney2004]

I clearly said we shouldn't do regime change, which would mean an occupation and protracted war...which can often be unwinnable Defend our borders, limited offensive to punish and remove imminent threats, go home.

OK...that would still require NATO/U.S. assets and support, the same support solicited by other nations who currently face "imminent threats". I don't know why Canada would or should be given any special consideration. Either you're in for collective defense/offense...or not.

[bush_cheney2004]

Going into the ME and taking out Hussein by GW, was the worse thing to happen to the world....

Ummmm...no...history studies in Canada can't be that deficient.

[Queenmandy85]

The US constantly backs losers. From Diem to al- Abadi. In Syria, Obama should be helping Putin to keep Assad in power and restore stability to the region. Assad may not be nice, but he is far better than the people trying to over throw him.

[WIP]

The same way that Canada has done it for First Nations since forever. They learned it from "England".

Not that most of us aren't already aware of some of the history, but England was no different than the other settler-colonial empires of Europe in considering themselves innately superior to any darker, inferior races they might come across in their travels and plant their flag in their lands. Follow the logic back to its origins, and we come to The Church, which whether Catholic or Protestant, had long dispatched any cosmopolitan notions of brotherhood of man and all people being equal under God etc.. Ruling classes always find ways to make their religions say what they want them to say, so every settler colonial empire declares some bullshit "chosen people" claim that God has granted them ownership of the tracts of land they just happen to covet.

The core problem is the outgrowth of tribalism known in modern times as nationalism and patriotism, that was identified as the root cause of suffering and evil in the world at least as far back as 2000 years ago, and longer, if we consider some other religious traditions that were noticing the problem and trying to figure out ways to get their people beyond this primitive way of thinking about people and the world we live in.

[eyeball]

Obama should be helping Putin to keep Assad in power

/facepalm

That'll work, joint co-dominion by enemies in the same region they've been waging proxy wars in for decades. If you can't beat 'em join 'em. Our grand-pappies would be so proud of us.

[WIP]

The US constantly backs losers. From Diem to al- Abadi. In Syria, Obama should be helping Putin to keep Assad in power and restore stability to the region. Assad may not be nice, but he is far better than the people trying to over throw him.

The US was trying to create a different form of empire after the conquest of the west began wrapping up after the Civil War. American rhetoric had long railed against the British Empire and other old empires of Europe, so they started creating pseudo-independent nations run by proxy dictators that would be given free reign to pillage their nations as long as they maintained order and followed US commercial and foreign policy objectives. So, the rest of the world has long noticed the absurdity of the nation claiming to be the beacon of democracy and human rights in the world, is the nation that overthrows democracies to install military dictators whenever the need arises!

And when they try to turn the tables to send money and guns to revolutionaries, they still get it wrong when they back drug-smugglers in Nicaragua...and most of the cocaine finds its way to American cities. Or in the Islamic terrorism context, it was the Reagan Administration that got the bright idea of supporting Bin Laden and other Mujaheddin jihadis and mercenaries invading Afghanistan to wage war against a Soviet-backed government. So, the formerly peaceful and tolerant Afghan countryside...where a generation of backpackers and hippies wandered through on their way to Kashmir and into India...is a place where gunmen set up roadblocks and demand payments before allowing anyone to get past.

There's no way to consider terrorism or the Islamic extremism without considering the blowback from supporting these groups, and allowing US ally - Saudi Arabia to fund the education of Muslims around the world with the ideology that forms the basis of Al Qaeda and ISIS and other terrorist groups that are treated today like something that came at us like some kind of bolt out of the blue...that we couldn't foresee and had nothing to do with creating!

I mentioned previously that there are reports now that Putin didn't want to spend capital defending Assad and was looking for some sort of deal that would have obviously included securing a few basic Russian interests in the region (nothing that the US doesn't also demand from such deals). Instead, they decided to roll the dice on another regime change attempt and have created a disaster that could destabilize Europe....or at least change the face of Europe as liberal democracies will likely be replaced by outright fascist parties in many European states because of the refugee crisis. That's the problem with having so many chickenhawks in positions of power, who love the idea of using military force as a first option, but have no personal appreciation for the results of war.

Edited September 20, 2015 by WIP

[marcus]

There was a time that the West counted on puppet regimes to keep control over countries. They still do to some extent, with countries such as Saudi, Qatar, Jordan and recently, Egypt, after helping Al-Sisi to come into power, over a democratically elected government.

Now, the West counts on creating instability, but containing the instability in one region. The instability keeps the opposition forces out of power and creates a war atmosphere where billions more can be spent on weapons. There is a lot of money the military industrial complex continues to make in Iraq/Syria/Afghanistan/Sudan and from the countries who need U.S. weapons in order to keep themselves safe from the "bad guys".

Edited September 20, 2015 by marcus

[Bonam]

Going into the ME and taking out Hussein by GW, was the worse thing to happen to the world...

Yes, definitely the worst thing to happen to the world. Ever.

[Big Guy]

The USA is a "warrior" nation and proud of it. They celebrate their wars and commemorate their battles and warrior deaths. They are also proud of the hundreds of thousands of white crosses on acres and acres of military cemeteries. They are prepared to spend $trillions on military equipment. As to the legitimacy of their invasions - there is a reason why the term "My nation right or wrong" was coined in America. That seems to keep the average American happy. Good for them. Each to his own.

I believe that Canada's strength is diversity, compromise and peace keeping. A few Canadian Prime Ministers have been able to keep Canada out of American wars and I praise them. The current leadership of our country wants to make Canada a "warrior" nation just like the USA. I think they are wrong. Too many Americans visit their children and grandchildren in military cemeteries. I would prefer to visit my grandchildren in their homes.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Big Guy

[dre]

/facepalm

That'll work, joint co-dominion by enemies in the same region they've been waging proxy wars in for decades. If you can't beat 'em join 'em. Our grand-pappies would be so proud of us.

We should just sit back and watch the civil war play out. It will result in the paritioning of Iraq and Syria, which is exactly what needs to happen.

Currently our goal seems to be to defeat ISIL, which would have the defactor result of returning territory they hold back over to the Iraqi and Syrian governments. The problem with this is two fold... First of all theres 20+ million Sunnis that dont want to be ruled by Shia. Secondly the Iraqi and Syrian governments are both Iranian proxies... We would be handing the whole place back over to Iran.

Lastly... The whole thing is pretty much unwinnable for two different reasons.

1. ISIL is not going to march out onto the battle field and let us kill them all. A prolonged occupation would be necessary because ISIL would simply retreat into the communities that they now control. We would have to wrestle control away from them which would mean fighting a prolonged urban insurgency, and even if we started to win or simply paid them money not to fight anymore, they would just melt into the population and wait for our inevitable departure like these exact same folks did in Iraq.

2. Even if we somehow WERE able to kill every single member of ISIL it would accomplish nothing at all. The political conditions that fostered ISIL's emergence would still exist. You would still have large groups of Sunnis and Shia that dont like each other, and want their own states. ISIL would simply be replace by other rebel groups.

We shouldnt spend a single penny or bleed a single drop of blood over this. Our involvement is incredibly stupid and wreckless, and it puts Canadians in danger here at home.

[kactus]

Going into the ME and taking out Hussein by GW, was the worse thing to happen to the world and just look at what the ME is today and how many people have been killed for what??? GW started all this and if I were one of those people being forced to leave my country by ISIS and others , I would be very angry at the US and other NATO countries for destroying the ME.

And who can forget the lies and deceits over the Hutton enquiry...

The claim in the government's dossier that Iraq could use weapons of mass destruction within 45 minutes of an order continues to cause controversy. The biggest BS lie put together to make a case for war with Saddam.

Ah and then there's oil and Kuwait....

Edited September 20, 2015 by kactus

[dre]

Yes, definitely the worst thing to happen to the world. Ever.

Probably an exxageration It was certainly one of the most stupid, and poorly thought out, and expensive mistakes in human history though. Especially considering most people knew exactly what was going to happen.

Overall the GWOT is definately the stupidest thing the human race has ever done. Its cost over 5 TRILLION dollars making it EASILY the most expensive project in human history, and it has accomplished the exact opposite of what it was meant to do.

5 Trillion dollars is an insane ammount of money... The entire space shuttle program cost about 1 TRILLION from start to finish over 20+ years. We could have built a space elevator, and a bridge with a highway and light rail linking Europe and North America, and still had a butload of cash left over.

Phenomenal stupidity.

[eyeball]

The USA is a "warrior" nation and proud of it. They celebrate their wars and commemorate their battles and warrior deaths. They are also proud of the hundreds of thousands of white crosses on acres and acres of military cemeteries. They are prepared to spend $trillions on military equipment. As to the legitimacy of their invasions - there is a reason why the term "My nation right or wrong" was coined in America. That seems to keep the average American happy. Good for them. Each to his own.

I believe that Canada's strength is diversity, compromise and peace keeping.

I think we suck at it myself. The proof is in our capacity for letting our best friend drive around in such a shit-faced condition for so long without saying squat about it.

[bush_cheney2004]

So, the rest of the world has long noticed the absurdity of the nation claiming to be the beacon of democracy and human rights in the world, is the nation that overthrows democracies to install military dictators whenever the need arises!

Seemed like a good idea to Canada, which sponsored the overthrow of Haiti's democratically elected president in 2004. Still waiting for the Haitian "terrorism".