bush_cheney2004 Posted September 20, 2015 Report Posted September 20, 2015 The US constantly backs losers. Don't forget John Diefenbaker ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 20, 2015 Report Posted September 20, 2015 ....There is a lot of money the military industrial complex continues to make in Iraq/Syria/Afghanistan/Sudan and from the countries who need U.S. weapons in order to keep themselves safe from the "bad guys". True...that's why Canada just closed a sweet deal with the Saudis for APCs. Worth billions to manufacturing in Ontario and other provinces. Another benefit from terrorism ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 20, 2015 Report Posted September 20, 2015 The USA is a "warrior" nation and proud of it. They celebrate their wars and commemorate their battles and warrior deaths. They are also proud of the hundreds of thousands of white crosses on acres and acres of military cemeteries. True...you should see the ones in France, Belgium, and United Kingdom. I believe that Canada's strength is diversity, compromise and peace keeping. A few Canadian Prime Ministers have been able to keep Canada out of American wars and I praise them. The current leadership of our country wants to make Canada a "warrior" nation just like the USA. I think they are wrong. Too many Americans visit their children and grandchildren in military cemeteries. I would prefer to visit my grandchildren in their homes. Some Canadians still choose to join in....regardless of what the prime minister says. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 20, 2015 Report Posted September 20, 2015 5 Trillion dollars is an insane ammount of money... The entire space shuttle program cost about 1 TRILLION from start to finish over 20+ years. We could have built a space elevator, and a bridge with a highway and light rail linking Europe and North America, and still had a butload of cash left over. Nope....bad guess with the usual exaggeration. Try about $200 billion for the space shuttle program over 30 years. Canada could have built a lot of things beyond Canadarms with all that money saving peacekeeping and indifference, but it didn't. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 20, 2015 Report Posted September 20, 2015 I think we suck at it myself. The proof is in our capacity for letting our best friend drive around in such a shit-faced condition for so long without saying squat about it. Who says the U.S. is your "best friend" ? Because it pays most of the tab ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Rue Posted September 20, 2015 Report Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) WIP your leftist theories sympathetic to Putin posed as facts are fun fun. Putin placed a naval port in Syria as a response to what he perceived was NATO expansionism and to protect oil coming through Iraq. Not that you noticed in your intelligence analysis but you may want to look and see who is getting the oil from Iraq these days. Its Russia and China oh hey now the two biggest exporters of Iraqi, Syrian and Iranian oil.. Funny how you did not notice that for being such an intelligence analyst By the way you also didn't seem to notice the naval port was built up in direct response to Obama's decision to embrace the Muslim Brotherhood with Erdogan and Morsi and that Putin believes the Muslim Brotherhood is an enemy of his country for supporting the Chechnyans. Funny how you did not notice that or the fact that Israel, Turkey, Egypt as well as Saudi Arabia all have relations with Russia and that China set up a strategic naval alliance with Israel as well.. You just don' get it. Russia and China moved in to placate those concerned with both Sunni and Shiite extremists addressing the void Obama created by abandoning the US as the policeman of the ME. Russia and China side with Iran yes but they also contain ISIL and Sunni extremism. Obama on the other hand has simply alienated every country in the Middle East by supporting the Muslim Brotherhood which created Hamas, Al Quaeda and ISIL which turned on both Obama and his elitist buddies in the Muslim Brotherhood. By the time Obama was turned on he had alienated all his traditional Sunni moderate allies of the ME plus Israel and thought he could just flippity flop his sorry ass to Iran. He was ridiculed by Iran. The only reason Israel and Saudi Arabia have not called a full scale war is because of China signalling Iran Israel is its military ally and by Russia stepping in and telling both Saudi Arabia and Egypt his naval presence in Syria will be backed up by soldiers keeping ISIL in check. The ME has moved on because of the failure of Obama and the void he created. The day he announced he was pulling his navy out of strategic zones that contained Iranian naval vessels Germany finalized the sending of state of the art subs and corvettes to Israel to pick up the slack and China sailed into Israeli naval ports and India suddenly came to a naval agreement with Iran. Where has your intelligence analysis been at WIP? Your buddy Obama, who follows all the policies you push, is considered a joke, a sheer joke by his enemies and former allies equally. He's the only President in US history who has achieved a sort of unity in the ME by the mutual disgust over what he and Turkey have done to destabilize the area . The Muslim Brotherhood of which Obama is a not so subtle member is an antiquated cult made up of Arab Masons who thought they could create their own Muslim Mason like group breaking away from the Masons and creating a Muslim elite network of power. It failed. It failed because this Mason like pyramid structure embraces eitism and Muslim extremism and desires to replace Arab oil monarchs with a new generation of elitists who would be just as corupt. the Erdogan-Morsi-Obama cult world of elite Muslim power has failed. They failed to create the empire he, Morsi and Erdogan envisioned. They have been defeated by both Sunni and Shiite extremists and now we see a new phase coming in, a war..a war between the West and East and between Judeo Christian/capitalist individual material values and fundamentalism collectivism extremist Muslim terrorist values. The two are coming head to head. The average Muslim still has no advanced skills. Only the elite in the ME got to school overseas and access its oil wealth. The remainder live in a barter society with no money and day to day subsistence captive of the terrorists and corrupt military regimes or monarchies. . Your arm chair perspective is nice but it is meaningless. Until you travel through the Middle East and live there and understand the reality of the desert you won't get it. Putin could care less about Assad or Syrians. He won't let one damn Syrian into his country and neither will China. They hate them more then any right winger on this forum you think does not share your views. They are there the same reason the US and Europe is, for oil. Edited September 20, 2015 by Rue Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted September 20, 2015 Author Report Posted September 20, 2015 OK...that would still require NATO/U.S. assets and support, the same support solicited by other nations who currently face "imminent threats". What imminent threats? And if there are imminent threats, which I don't see right now, there's smart vs foolish ways to respond to them. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 20, 2015 Report Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) What imminent threats? And if there are imminent threats, which I don't see right now, there's smart vs foolish ways to respond to them. Two different ideas....Canada does not live in a rough neighbourhood, and is probably the least experienced and qualified to decide what constitutes an imminent or existential threat compared to nations in the Middle East and the smartest ways for them to respond. ISIL is a threat to several nations in the ME. They want to be. Edited September 20, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
marcus Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 True...that's why Canada just closed a sweet deal with the Saudis for APCs. Worth billions to manufacturing in Ontario and other provinces. Another benefit from terrorism ? Yes. Time to change this horrible government. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Army Guy Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 The USA is a "warrior" nation and proud of it. They celebrate their wars and commemorate their battles and warrior deaths. They are also proud of the hundreds of thousands of white crosses on acres and acres of military cemeteries. They are prepared to spend $trillions on military equipment. As to the legitimacy of their invasions - there is a reason why the term "My nation right or wrong" was coined in America. That seems to keep the average American happy. Good for them. Each to his own. I believe that Canada's strength is diversity, compromise and peace keeping. A few Canadian Prime Ministers have been able to keep Canada out of American wars and I praise them. The current leadership of our country wants to make Canada a "warrior" nation just like the USA. I think they are wrong. Too many Americans visit their children and grandchildren in military cemeteries. I would prefer to visit my grandchildren in their homes. Does Canada not follow the same practices, do we not celebrate or commemorate our wars, our battles, our warriors....do we not honor these sacrifices and i'm not just talking about November 11, it is done through out the year, at every level of government, Vimy ridge , Beaumont Hammel are just two examples there are many more.....days we put aside to honor, remember our warriors sacrifice, trying to keep that promise Lest We Forget..... In towns and cities all across the country there is memorials with lists of names of those who have bravely answered the call and paid the ultimate price. In our nations Capitol there are several National monuments dedicated to our Nations warriors and their service. and we did not stop there we built awesome public works, all across europe that were built by Canadian tax payers money to honor our warriors....Vimy Ridge, Airbourne museum in Holland, and the hundreds of final resting places of our proud warriors. again so we could keep our promise "Lest We Forget".... Canada has always been a warrior nation, it is not a Conservative thing, it's a Canadian thing, It has been buried by liberal minded Canadians who feel embarrassed by it some how, like some dirty sock.....Canada as a Nation has always answered the call be it from our allieds, or from threats to our foreign policy. 1812, Boer war, WWI,WWII, Korea, Cold War, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, not to mention the countless others that have one or two paras in our history books, infact we have spent more dollars , effort, manpower in combat than we have ever spent on the peacekeeping Myth.....so i ask you how does peacekeeping become one of our strengths....because we invented it, spent 30 years doing it, Peace keeping is fading into the past, not because of the conservatives, but because it no longer produces the same results....a noble idea, that is becoming irrelevant today... time to hang our hat on something else.... Current leadership is not trying to turn us into a warrior nation, we've always been one....A standing military of just under 67,000 regular force pers, and 27,000 reserve pers who is ranked 74 th in size within the world, well sir it is hard to equate all that to "trying to create a warrior nation" here is what i see, i see a party that knows that it's military is in bad shape, and is trying to do something about it....and while many Canadians are not really happy at it's progress, of all the parties they have accomplished more with less, and given the other parties track record, i'm putting all my money on the Conservatives.....Hoping one day someone will get it right..... I agree with you 100% seeing our families grow up, healthy, happy, in a country, that has all the freedoms some only dream about......is the best option.....I'd take that all day long.....but freedom is not handed out like smarties to everyone, it all was won with blood and treasure, young men and women who thought their sacrifice was worth the cost...So their families and future generations could have a chance at a better future.... I thank god everyday that this country, is full of warriors, some of the best in the world, according to some,I also pray that those warriors have good leadership so their efforts, their sacrifices are not wasted..... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 Yes. Time to change this horrible government. I wonder if the poor guy making them in London Ont, feels the same way, when he puts food down for his family.....yes god forbid we build toys of war....when the other candidates are screaming we need more manufacturing jobs...... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
GostHacked Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 I wonder if the poor guy making them in London Ont, feels the same way, when he puts food down for his family.....yes god forbid we build toys of war....when the other candidates are screaming we need more manufacturing jobs...... Toys of war? Why can't we manufacture something that is constructive? Quote
Rue Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Your last question Ghost is just out and out petulant in tone and context. Why not just hold your breath and stamp your feet while you are at it. If you can't find a thing made in Canada that is constructive I would suggest it is the result of you being petulant not credible. Give it a rest with the extremist rhetoric. Just once give it a rest. This country was created and defended by good people. Terrorism and all the other evils in this world will not go away because people like you close their eyes and ears to it and piss on ther country's sacrifices. Time to grow up and understand blood and tears is what made this country and your soft skinned comments. Edited September 21, 2015 by Rue Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) I wonder if the poor guy making them in London Ont, feels the same way, when he puts food down for his family.....yes god forbid we build toys of war....when the other candidates are screaming we need more manufacturing jobs...... Why am I subsidizing the arms industry and manufacturing industry with my tax dollars? Just about any government military action where they need to buy these machines of war is on the taxpayers dime. If we're going to subsidize a segment of our economy, I'd rather we build subway systems or highways or hospitals etc. We obviously need a military, but our goals should be to use it as infrequently as possible to achieve our security needs and national interests. Edited September 21, 2015 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Rue Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Of course you don't see imminent threats Moonlight. You choose not to see. By the way you most certainly do not subsidize the military industrial complex. Its the other way around. Go figure out why. Your other comments are ridiculous. No one in Canada sits around ordering attacks for the hell of it. Your inference the army is being used unnecessarily flows from the fact you close your eyes and ears to world conflict and think if you block your eyes and ears it won't exist. The boogy man is out there and people are dying while you deny their continuing deaths. No one has asked you to do a damn thing. You can sit and take your world for granted-there are other men willing to die or fight for the lifestyle you take for granted and thank God they are. Thank God they are. I sure as hell do. I thank God as ironic as that sounds coming from someone who has more reason than you to believe God died. I have seen God's death. I have also seen its resurrection. It came in the form of men, ordinary men who chose to rise and look the evil straight in the eye and defeat it. I know such men. I see how big their boots are and were. I say nothing in their presence. Not a damn thing. The most high praise I can give them is silence. Can't do much more. Edited September 21, 2015 by Rue Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 . By the way you most certainly do not subsidize the military industrial complex. Its the other way around. Go figure out why. He most certainly does, like the rest of taxpayers do. Or do you believe the money for that fighter jet, a/c carrier, tank, etc. grows on a tree somewhere? Quote
GostHacked Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Your last question Ghost is just out and out petulant in tone and context. Why not just hold your breath and stamp your feet while you are at it. If you can't find a thing made in Canada that is constructive I would suggest it is the result of you being petulant not credible. Give it a rest with the extremist rhetoric. Just once give it a rest. This country was created and defended by good people. Terrorism and all the other evils in this world will not go away because people like you close their eyes and ears to it and piss on ther country's sacrifices. Time to grow up and understand blood and tears is what made this country and your soft skinned comments. Talking about armchair optics. Never knew asking questions was viewed as extremism. Edited September 21, 2015 by GostHacked Quote
Canada_First Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 Canada's military is embarrassingly weak. We need to be a military leader now. 74th strongest military in the world is crap. We should be ashamed of being so weak. Quote
marcus Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 I wonder if the poor guy making them in London Ont, feels the same way, when he puts food down for his family.....yes god forbid we build toys of war....when the other candidates are screaming we need more manufacturing jobs...... We need to accept the consequences of our actions. This is part of the advancement of humanity. I'm sure the guy putting food down for his family will be willing to do a job making something that destroys less. Like perhaps, something in renewable energy. Why can we not promote and invest in things that we know will not harm and destroy others and instead, will work to improve things. Look at the rise in jobs in renewable energy in Germany. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
GostHacked Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 Canada's military is embarrassingly weak. We need to be a military leader now. 74th strongest military in the world is crap. We should be ashamed of being so weak. Not even the US has been able to defeat terrorism. What exactly are you proposing here? Quote
Bonam Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 Probably an exxageration It was certainly one of the most stupid, and poorly thought out, and expensive mistakes in human history though. Especially considering most people knew exactly what was going to happen. Overall the GWOT is definately the stupidest thing the human race has ever done. Its cost over 5 TRILLION dollars making it EASILY the most expensive project in human history, and it has accomplished the exact opposite of what it was meant to do. If you measure expensive in terms of cost in nominal dollars, maybe it'd rank somewhere up there. But inflation-adjust things or scale them relative to the size of economies of the time and it'd be nowhere to be found. Think of the diplomatic mistakes that led to WWII and even WWI, and the cost in both blood and money of those. Or think of the cost and consequence of a single insult that the Shah of Kwarezm made to Genghis Khan. Or think of the adoption of communism by Russia and the cost of that. Human history is full of mistakes that had disastrous consequences, and the war on terror, while certainly expensive, has had relatively minor effects on the world in general. Frankly, your statement is a typical fallacy of the same type that constantly leads people to say things like "this election might be the most significant in history" or "this market crash is the precursor of the collapse of capitalism" or the like. It is the constant sense that whatever is happening now is somehow unprecedented, far larger and more ominous than what has happened in the past. And it's just not. We're not making the worst mistakes of all time and the world is not ending. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 Frankly, your statement is a typical fallacy of the same type that constantly leads people to say things like "this election might be the most significant in history" or "this market crash is the precursor of the collapse of capitalism" or the like. It is the constant sense that whatever is happening now is somehow unprecedented, far larger and more ominous than what has happened in the past. And it's just not. We're not making the worst mistakes of all time and the world is not ending. Thanks for the observation, I fully agree. Wiki says that WW2 killed 60 million people or 3% of the world population. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 One of the problems the Left makes in these kinds of discussions is blaming everything on the West while exempting the locals of any responsibility for their own actions, their own ignorance, or their own violence. These are backward societies, centuries behind us in most respects, and barbaric in many ways. The attempt to rebrand them as modern democracies is doomed to fail, and I've been saying that for some time. Democracy is for civilized people, which means people capable of compromise and peaceful disagreement. The peoples of this region are not at that stage. I said some time ago the US should simply have replaced Sadaam with a strong man and then left him to it. The same could be said for Afghanistan, an even more barbaric country. Apparently one of the issues the US military is facing in Afghanistan is that of pederasty. Evidently a lot of Afghan military and police commanders like young boys a lot, and don't have many qualms about using their power to acquire them for use as sexual slaves. Naturally, the American soldiers don't like it, but the US military is reluctant to get involved in any way. Rampant sexual abuse of children has long been a problem in Afghanistan, particularly among armed commanders who dominate much of the rural landscape and can bully the population. The practice is called bacha bazi, literally “boy play,” and U.S. soldiers and Marines have been instructed not to intervene — in some cases, not even when their Afghan allies have abused boys on military bases, according to interviews and court records. The U.S. policy of nonintervention is intended to maintain good relations with the Afghan police and militia units the United States has trained to fight the Taliban. It also reflects a reluctance to impose cultural values in a country where pederasty is rife, particularly among powerful men, for whom being surrounded by young teenagers can be a mark of social status. I think the US would be better off simply supporting a 'strong man' and withdrawing their troops rather than continue to engage in the farce of democracy which is Afghanistan. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/at-night-we-can-hear-them-screaming-u-s-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 Thanks for the observation, I fully agree. Wiki says that WW2 killed 60 million people or 3% of the world population. I wasnt talking about the total death toll. And the project was a success... the axis powers were defeated. So I wouldnt call it a mistake, or a waste of time and money like the GWOT. Bonham has a point about inflation though. As far as US spending, WW2 cost 4 trillion of todays dollars and the GWOT has cost 2. But the fact the two are even vaguely comparable is shocking. And the GWOT is just getting started Give it some time! Theres more money spent and more new terrorists created every day! Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Big Guy Posted September 21, 2015 Report Posted September 21, 2015 Does Canada not follow the same practices, do we not celebrate or commemorate our wars, our battles, our warriors.... I thank god everyday that this country, is full of warriors, some of the best in the world, according to some,I also pray that those warriors have good leadership so their efforts, their sacrifices are not wasted..... Thank you for a response which obviously took some time, patience and was well worth reading. We might disagree at length about whether the term "warrior nation" should be applied to Canada. Since there is no objective criteria for such a designation then it must be a subjective evaluation. By my personal definition, a warrior nation is one which declares war as a usual foreign policy rather than a last resort as an action or reaction to opposition. That is why I differentiate between the actions of Canada under previous leaderships with those of the United States. We both have quite different visions of Canada's role in the world and the feelings of most Canadians. I believe that one of the results of the diversity of our population, especially that part which is created by those fleeing war, makes Canadians very reluctant to send our young into battle. I agree with that philosophy. I also believe that the criteria for sending our military into battle is spelled out in what is now called the Powell Doctrine. I had followed his career and agree with him wholeheartedly. My perception is that while Canadians commemorate battles - win or lose - the Americans celebrate battles and wars (mainly those which they win). We also obviously disagree on the need for a strong military for Canada - hence the name that you chose for your avatar. It will be interesting to see if the next leadership of Canada continue to follow American leads and parallel USA policy or will try to create a distinct Canadian foreign policy. As to the use of our military, I have a few ideas I intend to post within the next few weeks and I hope you will share your opinion on them. I always read and consider your well thought out posts. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
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