Leaders debate Aug 6

[WWWTT]

I think Trudeau will be the lone sufferer in the polls after this debate.

LOL!

I didn't even know where to find the debate until you told me on chat last night!

Harper avoided the major networks televised debates for a good reason!

Fear!

WWWTT

[poochy]

LOL!

I didn't even know where to find the debate until you told me on chat last night!

Harper avoided the major networks televised debates for a good reason!

Fear!

WWWTT

No, he did it to payback the CBC for their attempt to deny fair use of their news clips. Considering the constant whinging from the CBC about not hosting the debate, it seems to have worked.

[poochy]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-and-elizabeth-may-prove-adept-at-the-tv-reality-of-debates-1.3182495

"But, um, Stephen Harper is the prime minister. And he looked like one."

[cybercoma]

I dislike Trudeau too, but I don't feel that he won the debate (nobody won it)

I think for all intents and purposes of debate Elizabeth May was the clear winner last night.

[cybercoma]

Harper was his old stodgy self. Nothing exciting, but no gaffes either.

I don't know. I was pretty surprised that he 1) admitted the country is in a recession when his finance minister has been saying it's not, and 2) admitted that the PMO interferes in Senate votes. I'm sure those things are only really interesting to political wonks, but they were surprising chinks in the armour.

I thought Mulcair was ok. I don't know if anything went really wrong or really right for him. I don't know if he won any new fans, but I doubt he lost any votes either. I think his goal was probably to convince people that he's not a business-hating tax-and-spender, and I'm not sure whether he succeeded or not.

I'm betting his creepy forced smile turned off a lot of people. He really needs to stop doing that.

For me the only thing that jumped out about Trudeau was his attack on Mulcair re: the clarity act, and his defense of his party's position on C-51.

Honestly, I believe Trudeau's attack on Mulcair here will not only hurt the Liberals in Quebec, but also make the rest of Canada question why Trudeau's bringing up secession when literally no one else is talking about it. It's been 20 years since the referendum. More importantly, Mulcair's record is clear on this. He was there fighting on the front lines fighting to keep the country together. Mulcair's stance, if people are willing to look into it, is the same as the rules for the Scottish referendum and the same as the rules for the Newfoundland referendum that brought them into Confederation. Trudeau thinks he's got something on Mulcair, but at the end of the day it just looks bad on the Liberals that they're stoking secessionist flames for votes, imo.

If Trudeau really wanted to have an impact on the NDP, he would position his party as the only one that can build a bridge between Bay Street and Main Street. He would paint Harper as unbalanced in favour of Bay Street and Mulcair unbalanced in favour of Main Street, both of them being uncompromising and unbalanced in their approaches. Questioning Mulcair's dedication to keeping the country together is a non-starter, as the evidence is out there showing the work he's done to keep the country together. In fact, it makes Trudeau look petty. It makes him look like he's opening old wounds for political gain, when there is a much more effective strategy that could improve the Liberal Party's position and cement their identity as distinct from both the NDP and CPC.

[Topaz]

Thank God for May, because if any said something wrong she was there and Harper seemed to have the most misinformation or out right lies of the bunch. Harper has never had a problem speaking but with him one has to watch what he says because sometimes its not true and with these debates TRUTH should most the #1 issue. I can see why Harper doesn't want to do certain debates its hard to defend himself, silence is golden.

[Bryan]

May was a lot less crazy than usual, she almost looked like a rational choice for once. Trudeau's "my number is nine" quip was the closest thing to a zinger, and the fact that he showed up and didn't melt down when everyone fully expected him to probably did make him seem like his overall performance was better than it really was. The only gaffe I saw was pretty minor: Mulcair losing his place on his closing speech.

You could make a drinking game about every time one of the leaders calls out "that's not true".

One thing I'd like to see is fact checking on the fly by the producers of the program. When participants are disagreeing about facts, post which one is telling the truth on screen. A lot of people don't follow politics nearly as much as we do here, and they have no idea which one is correct when multiple people insisting that their wildly different numbers are correct.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Bryan

[Keepitsimple]

I thought Trudeau did well in that he did not in any way self-destruct and overall, he gained some ground on Mulcair. Although he continues to be short on substance and policy, I don't think that matters to many of the public who would potentially vote for him. He was pretty calm and came across as a nice guy. His only gaffe was actually quite funny - his very last words - there was a delay as if Paul Wells was waiting for him to finish and finally Trudeau haltingly said "and that's why I want to be Prime Minister". I thought Mulcair would have more of a powerful presence - but he had a plastic face all night along with a slow-paced delivery and looked nervous, losing his place on his notes at least once. If he was looking to win more people over, I don't think his performance was helpful....so I'd say he lost some ground. Harper.....was Harper - no slip-ups, no gaffes.....so if people get nervous in the ballot box, he still remains a grudging safe choice.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[PIK]

Ms May did great. The last one she was in she was brutal aNd arrogant. Mulciar has a very short memory when it comes to the deficit. Complaining about it, but yet whined during that time at how it was not enough, you cant have it both ways. Harper did well in keeping his cool under attack and sounded like PM. Trudeau not so much, but did show that he was probably a good drama teacher.

[Hal 9000]

If you watched any of the city news coverage after the debate they went around to some students at a local university as well as a local family's household to get their impressions. It seems as though all the leaders did well to them but among the people asked Mulcair was still the name mentioned as being most favourable in contrast to Harper. With some of the students saying it's Harper's time to go.

I've been saying it for the last few years and I'll continue saying it until election day.. Harper has turned a large majority of the second largest voter demographic in the country against him. His ignorance of environmental and political policies not to mention his many scandals is turning young people against him. They are pissed off and they will vote. Never under estimate pissed off youth. Unfortunately Harper has done just that. He's struck a chord with them, albiet a rotten one. I see and hear about it every single day. I don't expect you to believe me, you think very little of the youth of this country and I don't blame you for that. But they will vote and they won't be voting for Harper. I reckon we see one of the largest youth voter turnouts in the history of this country come October.

Since when have the young voters ever voted conservative? I voted NDP as a youth, it's just what you do.

[Spiderfish]

I was a bit puzzled by Trudeau's statement about environmental policy, particularly when he quipped... "What Mr. Harper has consistently misunderstood about what happens in the 21^st century is…you cannot make a choice between what’s good for the environment and what’s good for the economy."

Edited August 7, 2015 by Spiderfish

[PrimeNumber]

Trudeau's "my number is nine" quip was the closest thing to a zingedifferent numbers are correct.

This one is making the round on virtually every single macleans video posted about the elections. As well as pretty much every website as the zinger of the night.

"Mr. Harper no one believes you!"

I think this may be the line of the campaign. when you read why some of the people think Trudeau won, it's because he exposed Harper for his lies. Lies about the parties wanting to kill income splitting for seniors and lies about netflix taxes.

I think Harper may even suffer in the polls after that one. The Media in general seems to be running with the fact that Trudeau took Harper down a notch.

[PrimeNumber]

Gee, i havent heard that before

I sure haven't. It's pretty well known we have one of the lowest youth voter turn outs of the developed countries.

[Big Guy]

When some posters watching the same debate see very different things then I suggest that it tells more about the poster than the debating leaders.

[-1=e^ipi]

"What Mr. Harper has consistently misunderstood about what happens in the 21^st century is…you cannot make a choice between what’s good for the environment and what’s good for the economy."

Basically Trudeau is denying the existence of any tradeoff between the environment and the economy. The other parties do it too. Harper deludes himself into thinking that CO2 emission taxes have zero effect on emissions. May and Mulcair delude themselves into thinking that stopping fossil fuel exports 'keeps jobs in Canada', etc. The ideologies of the parties are so simplistic that they cannot deal with tradeoffs, so they try to pretend the existence of these tradeoffs away.

[Spiderfish]

Basically Trudeau is denying the existence of any tradeoff between the environment and the economy. The other parties do it too...

I wonder if he'll be able to sell this idea in Ontario.

The ideologies of the parties are so simplistic that they cannot deal with tradeoffs, so they try to pretend the existence of these tradeoffs away.

I don't think it's just the ideologies of the parties, it seems to be pretty reflective of society in general.

[-1=e^ipi]

Harper has turned a large majority of the second largest voter demographic in the country against him. His ignorance of environmental and political policies not to mention his many scandals is turning young people against him. They are pissed off and they will vote.

Young people will vote against conservatives, but I don't think that is something unique to Harper or Canada. When the schools and universities constantly spew social justice and environmental alarmist nonsense continually, it's not hard to see why.

A lot of people don't follow politics nearly as much as we do here, and they have no idea which one is correct when multiple people insisting that their wildly different numbers are correct.

We need powerpoint debates. Where leaders bring all their facts on powerpoint or something and display their sources on a screen whenever they make them.

[-1=e^ipi]

I don't think it's just the ideologies of the parties, it seems to be pretty reflective of society in general.

Yeah, that's true. So many examples of it in society.

"Raising the minimum wage will have 0 effect on employment and only hurts the super rich millionaires!"

"Significant CO2 mitigation policy will have no negative economic effects because it will create all these green jobs."

etc.

[Keepitsimple]

This one is making the round on virtually every single macleans video posted about the elections. As well as pretty much every website as the zinger of the night.

"Mr. Harper no one believes you!"

I think this may be the line of the campaign. when you read why some of the people think Trudeau won, it's because he exposed Harper for his lies. Lies about the parties wanting to kill income splitting for seniors and lies about netflix taxes.

I think Harper may even suffer in the polls after that one. The Media in general seems to be running with the fact that Trudeau took Harper down a notch.

Who to believe?

Let's deal with facts - first of all, Harper said that the other parties "were against income-splitting (and other tax breaks) in whole or in part". Secondly - here are Mr. Trudeau's own words - you tell me if it sounds like he's in favour of income splitting - although in his defence, he has since said he'd leave it in place for seniors. Mulcair on the other hand - was even more direct - he'd reverse it all. Harper did not lie about income splitting - as you claim.....in fact, it was Trudeau who lied and Mulcair who skirted the issue. Care to argue with the facts?

The Grit leader went on to slam income splitting as a $2-billion tax break for the rich and deride the expanded tax-free savings account limit as something that benefits only the well-to-do.

“Why didn’t he instead use every nickel to help the middle class and those seeking to join it?” he asked.

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/05/12/trudeau-harper-benefiting-every-single-family_n_7269124.html

or here: http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/01/15/mulcair-would-undo-harper-tax-cut-for-parents

"Under Stephen Harper, inequality has actually grown between the privileged few and the middle class. We'll reverse that as well, and as a first step we'll scrap his unfair income-splitting scheme," Mulcair said to loud applause of the 150 or so NDP MPs and political staff that filled the same meeting room on Parliament Hill where the governing party normally holds its weekly caucus meetings.

Link: http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/01/15/mulcair-would-undo-harper-tax-cut-for-parents

Edited August 7, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[On Guard for Thee]

This one is making the round on virtually every single macleans video posted about the elections. As well as pretty much every website as the zinger of the night.

"Mr. Harper no one believes you!"

I think this may be the line of the campaign. when you read why some of the people think Trudeau won, it's because he exposed Harper for his lies. Lies about the parties wanting to kill income splitting for seniors and lies about netflix taxes.

I think Harper may even suffer in the polls after that one. The Media in general seems to be running with the fact that Trudeau took Harper down a notch.

And lets not for get lies about the environment. May picked exactly the right moment to roll her eyes and shake her head when Harper replied to her question saying that Canada's CO2 emissions are being reduced, when we all know they are in fact increasing.

[Evening Star]

Basically Trudeau is denying the existence of any tradeoff between the environment and the economy.

I'm not sure that's what he meant: I interpret the idea as being that without a healthy environment, we will eventually have no economy to speak of, and thus, it is foolish to think that we can choose one or the other. However, it is possible that his thinking is in fact as simplistic as you suggest.

[Keepitsimple]

And lets not for get lies about the environment. May picked exactly the right moment to roll her eyes and shake her head when Harper replied to her question saying that Canada's CO2 emissions are being reduced, when we all know they are in fact increasing.

On income splitting - it's already been shown that Harper was correct - the Liberals would reverse most of it - the NDP would reverse all of it. The environment....a dog's breakfast that can be argued until the cows come home. No matter what Harper does, it'll never, ever be good enough. But I'd hazard a guess that Harper's claims were technically correct - regardless of how miniscule the Left might think those claims are. Care to pick out an exact statement that he made that you feel is untrue? Give it your best shot.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[-1=e^ipi]

And lets not for get lies about the environment. May picked exactly the right moment to roll her eyes and shake her head when Harper replied to her question saying that Canada's CO2 emissions are being reduced, when we all know they are in fact increasing.

https://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=en_atm_co2e_pc&idim=country:CAN:USA:AUS&hl=en&dl=en

[On Guard for Thee]

On income splitting - it's already been shown that Harper was correct - the Liberals would reverse most of it - the NDP would reverse all of it. The environment....a dog's breakfast that can be argued until the cows come home. No matter what Harper does, it'll never, ever be good enough. But I'd hazard a guess that Harper's claims were technically correct - regardless of how miniscule the Left might think those claims are. Care to pick out an exact statement that he made that you feel is untrue? Give it your best shot.

I just did. Read my post. He told a lie. (at least one)

[On Guard for Thee]

https://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=en_atm_co2e_pc&idim=country:CAN:USA:AUS&hl=en&dl=en

Nice try though.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jan/14/canada-carbon-emissions-2030-tar-sands