ReeferMadness Posted September 6, 2015 Report Posted September 6, 2015 Trudeau ran up the debt and left it to Mulroney when the interest rates were in the high double digits, and so was the unemployment rate. Guess what happens when you owe a ton of money and there's high interest rates... .... and you spend 8 years making the situation worse.... ... and after you get out of office, people pay you in paper bags of cash.... Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
WIP Posted September 6, 2015 Report Posted September 6, 2015 (edited) The Conservatives, like every government in Canadian history, have done their best to encourage all industries, including all natural resource industries. I'm not aware of any change in that regard between them and the Liberals who preceded them. I'm also unaware of any country on Earth which has not done its best to develop its oil industry. This is the point where a little schooling on primary issues has to be added to the discussion. Because gravitating towards oil and other resource development provides quick easy money for a nation...or lower level government, but has clearly identifiable negative effects invariably combined with it. The general principle of Resource Curse, where economies rely on natural resource extraction and export subvert democracy, increase stratification of wealth and have a detrimental effects on economic growth not directly related to resource extraction, have been known for at least 30 years, as economists have scratched their heads trying to figure out what's wrong with OPEC nations and other resource-rich third world nations. But oil specifically is the most corrosive of resources...except maybe for rare earth elements. Maybe things would have worked out better for us if we hadn't glommed on to the free tradeBS, but with billions pouring in to Alberta to develop "unconventional oil" or bitumen, the next thing we know, we have a Dollar at par with the US, and the sudden rise of the Cdn Dollar starts wiping out manufacturing and even agricultural exports. Now that boom and bust cycles of freewheeling capitalism have suddenly knocked oil prices in half and devastated the oil economy, we just might be saved from this trainwreck created by Harper Government policies. The full negative effects of oil go beyond driving up the value of national currencies, as noted 10 years ago by Princeton economist - Michael L Ross The Oil Curse: How Petroleum Wealth Shapes the Development of Nations Countries that are rich in petroleum have less democracy, less economic stability, and more frequent civil wars than countries without oil. What explains this oil curse? And can it be fixed? In this groundbreaking analysis, Michael L. Ross looks at how developing nations are shaped by their mineral wealth--and how they can turn oil from a curse into a blessing. Ross traces the oil curse to the upheaval of the 1970s, when oil prices soared and governments across the developing world seized control of their countries' oil industries. Before nationalization, the oil-rich countries looked much like the rest of the world; today, they are 50 percent more likely to be ruled by autocrats--and twice as likely to descend into civil war--than countries without oil. The Oil Curse shows why oil wealth typically creates less economic growth than it should; why it produces jobs for men but not women; and why it creates more problems in poor states than in rich ones. It also warns that the global thirst for petroleum is causing companies to drill in increasingly poor nations, which could further spread the oil curse. Ross focuses on the effects of sudden oil wealth in poor countries, but if we check the boxes, we find the same effects on a more limited scale, on the Canadian economy, if we take note of the fact that unending...almost permanent PC rule in Alberta didn't finally come to an end until Albertans were left with the prospect that the tarsands economy was about to crash down upon them. The stratification of wealth and incomes...including along gender lines, happened in this Country also! It's not just something for the Middle East to deal with, and Harper deliberately set this up, so he should take the fall and fall hard for this failure! Edited September 6, 2015 by WIP Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Scotty Posted September 6, 2015 Report Posted September 6, 2015 (edited) .... and you spend 8 years making the situation worse.... What do you think he should have done given the crappy economic situation he found himself in? Do you think he should have cut spending by $40 billion in the middle of a terrible recession with double digit unemployment? Edited September 6, 2015 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
hitops Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 Link? . You need a link for Stalin, Mao, the Viet Cong, or North Korea? Stalin alone, is the largest mass murderer in history. Quote
hitops Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Well other than the fact he took a hefty surplus handed to him, almost immediately turned it into a deficit, (what's that now 6 in a row, soon to be 7)? and added something like 130 billion to the national debt. "Nothing substantial" you say? What's that now, 6 in a row, soon to be 7.....years since the financial crisis? And every developed nation in the world having similar problems during that time..... Waiting for the connection to form in your brain........ Edited September 11, 2015 by hitops Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 What's that now, 6 in a row, soon to be 7.....years since the financial crisis? And every developed nation in the world having similar problems during that time..... Waiting for the connection to form in your brain........ No, deficits. Heard of them? Only one of the G7 still struggling with them. I thought Harper said he was a.....economist wasn't it? Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 No, deficits. Heard of them? Only one of the G7 still struggling with them. I thought Harper said he was a.....economist wasn't it? Yeah. Maybe he said that but really he's not. 3. Finally, you don't get to call yourself an economist unless sometime during your working life, you have held down a job that by any reasonably accepted standards of that profession, clearly requires training in advanced economics as a precondition for doing the work in question. He could best be described as a career politician. And there is a Conservative ad that goes after Mulcair for being just that. Hypocrites. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
cybercoma Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 What's that now, 6 in a row, soon to be 7.....years since the financial crisis? And every developed nation in the world having similar problems during that time..... Waiting for the connection to form in your brain........ Harper came into office with a surplus and blew through it, running a deficit before the financial crisis hit in October 2008. Quote
drummindiver Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Lol. Paul Martin is revered as the great balancer, yet stole 54 billion dollars from EI. Oddly, he wasn't charged. His government was convicted however of illegally charging Canadians for these monies. Canadians that needed EI had difficulty getting it from the EI changes that the Liberals brought in. Yes, Harper is evil, but stealing 54 billion of rainy day money then not giving it to the ppl who need it most when it's pouring outside is lauded as good financial acuity. Insane much? http://www.ctvnews.ca/top-court-says-ottawa-broke-law-in-financing-ei-1.350900 Edited September 11, 2015 by drummindiver Quote
cybercoma Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 Wait, you're worried about people not being able to get EI? And you're going to tell us how great Harper is? Quote
drummindiver Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 Wait, you're worried about people not being able to get EI? And you're going to tell us how great Harper is? What happened? The Liberals brought in EI legislation in 1996 that tightened eligibility rules for EI benefits but simultaneously opened the door to new training, education, placement and other programs. After bringing into effect this new law, it created a massive EI surplus. To fix the surplus problem, in 2002, 2003 and 2005, the Liberal cabinet set EI rates directly without the authorization from Parliament and the employment insurance commission, a violation of the very old constitutional principle of no taxation without representation. http://www.hrinfodesk.com/preview.asp?article=27797 Quote
cybercoma Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 And this changes the fact that Harper blew through a surplus and had us running a deficit before the financial crisis how? Quote
Canada_First Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) The Tories need only real men. Not men who are in touch with the feminine side of themselves. So go hug a tree. Spark up a blunt. And munch some granola. Oh don't forget to deposit your man card and your balls on your way out. The Conservative Party doesn't need tampon using men who get the monthlys. Thank you. Edited September 11, 2015 by Canada_First Quote
drummindiver Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 And this changes the fact that Harper blew through a surplus and had us running a deficit before the financial crisis how? I'm pointing out there are many ways to balance the budget. He could have done it nefariously like the Liberals, but he didn't. Quote
cybercoma Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 I'm pointing out there are many ways to balance the budget. He could have done it nefariously like the Liberals, but he didn't. He also raided EI and sold off GM shares and still didn't balance the budget. Quote
drummindiver Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 He also raided EI and sold off GM shares and still didn't balance the budget. lol.for 54 billion? nope, not even close. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/04/21/ei-fund-budget-surplus-canada-2015_n_7113322.html Quote
waldo Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 He could have done it nefariously like the Liberals, but he didn't. same shyte, different day! Again, Supreme Court sanctioned... oh wait... are you saying the Liberal Party shift was "nefarious" and Harper's shift was... not? . Quote
drummindiver Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 lol.for 54 billion? nope, not even close. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/04/21/ei-fund-budget-surplus-canada-2015_n_7113322.html Another Paul Martin tidbit I'm sure all Liberals are fond of. Remember when the company he owned received $161,000,000 in government contracts, much of it while he was finance minister, while claiming on official documents to have received only $137,000? You know, little lies that would put the average Mapleleafwebber in the slammer for quite awhile. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/161-million-csl-error-puts-martin-on-hot-seat/article993283/ Quote
drummindiver Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 No, deficits. Heard of them? Only one of the G7 still struggling with them. I thought Harper said he was a.....economist wasn't it? Facts are hard. http://fin.gc.ca/news-nouvelles/video/13-002-eng.asp Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 Facts are hard. http://fin.gc.ca/news-nouvelles/video/13-002-eng.asp They are. Especially when the real facts derail your projections. Quote
jacee Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 Facts are hard. http://fin.gc.ca/news-nouvelles/video/13-002-eng.asp Yup, as OGFT said ... "[The deficit] will keep on falling, as we expect a surplus of almost $4 billion in 2015-16." They balanced the budget by selling off our assets, and taking EI premium money out of the pockets of workers. But what happened to the predicted "surplus"? And what happened to the $3.1b in 'anti-terror' funds that were never properly accounted for? . Quote
Scotty Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) And this changes the fact that Harper blew through a surplus and had us running a deficit before the financial crisis how? You make it sound like he went on a spending spree when he mostly gave it back to us. And there is no chance, zero, that had the Liberals or NDP been in power we would not have run deficits. None. Edited September 11, 2015 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
On Guard for Thee Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 You make it sound like he went on a spending spree when he mostly gave it back to us. He gave a lot of it to large corps. He gave "us" 130 billion more debt load. Quote
Moonbox Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) And this changes the fact that Harper blew through a surplus and had us running a deficit before the financial crisis how? At least a lot of that was due to reduced taxes. It's another thing altogether to blow it on overpaying federal provincial public servants etc. Regardless, I think at this point we can all dispel the myth that Harper's somehow a strong manager of the economy. His priorities have been made clear with income-splitting and the TFSA contribution limit increases, both of which benefit the wealthy almost exclusively. The question now is are the other guys going to do any better? As soon as someone shows me that they ACTUALLY have the middle class in mind (and by that I don't mean our overpaid public sector), they'll have my vote. So far the closest thing to that I've seen is Trudeau, but the guy's an idiot. For me my vote hinges on whether or not I can believe Trudeau's team can muzzle him and that he'll listen to them. Maybe this is a question for another debate, but why isn't there a party that can get tough with: a ) Corporate swindling (ie. banks/telecoms/oil and their lobbyists) b )The bloated and overpaid public sector Why are we always choosing between the two? Why isn't there someone in the middle trying to show how we're getting screwed from both directions? Edited September 11, 2015 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
PIK Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 Yup, as OGFT said ... "[The deficit] will keep on falling, as we expect a surplus of almost $4 billion in 2015-16." They balanced the budget by selling off our assets, and taking EI premium money out of the pockets of workers. But what happened to the predicted "surplus"? And what happened to the $3.1b in 'anti-terror' funds that were never properly accounted for? . Are you kidding me, that 3.1 has been explained along time ago and guess what it was not missing. Get with the times. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
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