Does the Sandra Bland story outrage you?

[On Guard for Thee]

I don't see it that way....it is not a game of legal cat and mouse. Insisting on a "reason" before complying /cooperating will only feed a false dynamic, wherein the officer can/will fabricate whatever is necessary. If the cops make a mistake, either move on or make a federal case about it.

The expectation and strident demand of "Why did YOU stop ME!" starts the escalation process, undermines the officer's lawful authority, and attempts to set up an equal power relationship where none exists. Police officers are not ignorant to this issue and have attempted to confront it in some U.S. cities.

http://www.wysm.org/

Procedurally, the police officer is first concerned with securing the scene and assessing risks, not engaging in a debate about what is or is not a legal stop. Lots of people don't understand that. Once the cop decides you are not a physical threat, he/she can shift into the next phase of the stop / detention.

If cops are not ignorant of the law, why not just answer a valid questions which are the rights in the law of anyone who is detained by them? Or are you just one of those who reckons somebody with a badge and a fancy blue suit must be smarter than the rest of us?

[blueblood]

If cops are not ignorant of the law, why not just answer a valid questions which are the rights in the law of anyone who is detained by them? Or are you just one of those who reckons somebody with a badge and a fancy blue suit must be smarter than the rest of us?

If i got detained without being told thw reason, why would i be pissing and moaning about that? The smart play would be to keep my trap shut and have mr lawyer take mr cop to the woodshed in court. Id be smiling if i didnt get told what i was detained for. Can you say case dismissed, crikey we arent in russia or north korea...

[On Guard for Thee]

If i got detained without being told thw reason, why would i be pissing and moaning about that? The smart play would be to keep my trap shut and have mr lawyer take mr cop to the woodshed in court. Id be smiling if i didnt get told what i was detained for. Can you say case dismissed, crikey we arent in russia or north korea...

So you don't mind if you are detained with no reason given. Up to you I guess.

[blueblood]

I don't see it that way....it is not a game of legal cat and mouse. Insisting on a "reason" before complying /cooperating will only feed a false dynamic, wherein the officer can/will fabricate whatever is necessary. If the cops make a mistake, either move on or make a federal case about it.

The expectation and strident demand of "Why did YOU stop ME!" starts the escalation process, undermines the officer's lawful authority, and attempts to set up an equal power relationship where none exists. Police officers are not ignorant to this issue and have attempted to confront it in some U.S. cities.

http://www.wysm.org/

Procedurally, the police officer is first concerned with securing the scene and assessing risks, not engaging in a debate about what is or is not a legal stop. Lots of people don't understand that. Once the cop decides you are not a physical threat, he/she can shift into the next phase of the stop / detention.

Agree. Maybe the lighting of the cigarette is one of those cues that the driver is hiding something or crap could hit the fan. Is wager its the most dangerous part of the job, walking up to a car and speaking to a driver they have no idea who they are and if they are going to get bushwhacked, ambushed, or a gong show takes place.

I will say that both people's tempers got the better of them and we got a circus as the result.

[blueblood]

So you don't mind if you are detained with no reason given. Up to you I guess.

Why would i mind? i just won a court case and i think unlawful confinement could possibly have taken place. Wouldnt it be smarter to do as rue says and talk to a lawyer about what happened and see what you got than lose my shit and walk into a real arrest?

[On Guard for Thee]

Why would i mind? i just won a court case and i think unlawful confinement could possibly have taken place. Wouldnt it be smarter to do as rue says and talk to a lawyer about what happened and see what you got than lose my shit and walk into a real arrest?

Wouldn't it be smarter to train cops better so they respect peoples rights rather than putting the in handcuffs because they changed lane without a signal?

[blueblood]

Wouldn't it be smarter to train cops better so they respect peoples rights rather than putting the in handcuffs because they changed lane without a signal?

As per bc2004, it wasnt the lane change that got the cuffs, it was the cue of the cigarette and failing to follow direction. The officer most likely was trained, however his superiors said he didnt follow departmental procedure. We dont know if the officer finally informed her of what she was arrested for when she eventually cooled down.

The same thing could be posed the other way around: is getting pulled over for a lane change and having a meltdown worth getting put in handcuffs over?

[On Guard for Thee]

As per bc2004, it wasnt the lane change that got the cuffs, it was the cue of the cigarette and failing to follow direction. The officer most likely was trained, however his superiors said he didnt follow departmental procedure. We dont know if the officer finally informed her of what she was arrested for when she eventually cooled down.

The same thing could be posed the other way around: is getting pulled over for a lane change and having a meltdown worth getting put in handcuffs over?

The "cue" as you call it about the cigarette, as well as the request for her to exit the car as well also the cop not explaining why she was under arrest, are all illegal and complete shortcomings of a properly trained police officer. I wouldn't take my "cues" from BC.

[bush_cheney2004]

...The same thing could be posed the other way around: is getting pulled over for a lane change and having a meltdown worth getting put in handcuffs over?

Agreed....a reasonable person would have chosen to behave otherwise. Hundreds of thousands do each year.

As for the lawful order to exit the vehicle, some jurisdictions have the detained person leave their vehicle or even sit in the squad car while running the typical background checks for license, registration, open warrants, stolen vehicle, insurance, etc.

[bush_cheney2004]

Here is a very blunt disclosure from a cop...

I’m a cop. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t challenge me. It’s not the police, but the people they stop, who can prevent a detention from turning into a tragedy.

...Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-a-cop-if-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/

Edited July 26, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[On Guard for Thee]

Here is a very blunt disclosure from a cop...

I’m a cop. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t challenge me. It’s not the police, but the people they stop, who can prevent a detention from turning into a tragedy.

...Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-a-cop-if-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/

Sounds like something a cop wannabe would respect. The rest of us, not so much.

[bush_cheney2004]

Now infamous Reese Witherspoon video from her husband's DUI stop/arrest. Ms. Witherspoon later apologized for her drunken behaviour.

[kimmy]

It matters because a person who feels their rights are being violated could end up escalating the situation for no reason, and because police officers also tend to escalate situations for no reason. If the officer's rationale for the order is on tape on the dashcam, the person being detained has a reasonable expectation that things will work themselves out in the end as long as they remain calm and comply right now.

I agree.

Far from undermining the cop's authoritah, as BC2004 claims, being able to state the reason you're being detained establishes that you're dealing with a professional with the law behind him, as opposed to a jackass who is abusing his power.

-k

[kimmy]

Just do what the policeman says, and everything will be ok.

A highway patrol officer stops a woman, and after a check of her license and registration, he says "Ma'am, I'm going to need to see your phone."

"What?! Why?"

"Ma'am, are we going to have a problem?"

"No, sir," she says, handing over the phone.

Why does the officer need her phone? He needs it so that he can look through her photos for sexy pictures that he can send to his squad buddies.

-k

[Shady]

Just do what the policeman says, and everything will be ok.

A highway patrol officer stops a woman, and after a check of her license and registration, he says "Ma'am, I'm going to need to see your phone."

"What?! Why?"

"Ma'am, are we going to have a problem?"

"No, sir," she says, handing over the phone.

Why does the officer need her phone? He needs it so that he can look through her photos for sexy pictures that he can send to his squad buddies.

-k

She did the right thing. And now the right thing is to follow that action with a lawsuit, in which the cop will lose big.

[Wilber]

Sounds like something a cop wannabe would respect. The rest of us, not so much.

Sounds like a good candidate for the Stasi.

[kimmy]

She did the right thing. And now the right thing is to follow that action with a lawsuit, in which the cop will lose big.

Yeah, that's super. You know damned well the cop is going to violate you, but you comply with him anyway to avoid getting abused, and ask for money to compensate you for the humiliation later on. That's awesome.

-k

[msj]

Yep, we are supposed to just shut up and do what they say and take it because, authoritah!

Exactly why we, the ones paying these bozos wages, need to continue to push for more cameras pointed at what they are doing so we can weed out the criminals amongst them.

[eyeball]

Yep, we are supposed to just shut up and do what they say and take it because, authoritah!

Exactly why we, the ones paying these bozos wages, need to continue to push for more cameras pointed at what they are doing so we can weed out the criminals amongst them.

We need to aim the cameras much higher up the chain of command. I'm convinced that the higher we aim the fewer we'll have to aim them at. Concentrate honesty and decency at the top where the real power is and look for the trickle down effect - like wealth except maybe for real.

Go right to the very top and maybe even wealth will finally trickle down for a change.

[GostHacked]

When I say civil and reasonable, I mean on both sides. I respect police but I don't feel intimidated by them. A police officer is supposed to know what he can legally do and act accordingly. She may have been a PITA but it was the officer who decided to escalate the situation. He turned it into a contest of wills for no real reason other than she wasn't being nice. The behavior shown was exactly the same kind of thing you see in a road rage incident. Not professional at all.

He should have issued the ticket and that is that. The cop was in the wrong. Only trolls would say otherwise.

[Argus]

Not my judgement. It's the judgement of the US lawyer who is director of the Texas Civil Rights Project. Jim Harrington.

And yet I've seen several legal comentaries on this so far which all say otherwise. He can indeed order her out of the car.

[GostHacked]

As per bc2004, it wasnt the lane change that got the cuffs, it was the cue of the cigarette and failing to follow direction. The officer most likely was trained, however his superiors said he didnt follow departmental procedure. We dont know if the officer finally informed her of what she was arrested for when she eventually cooled down.

The same thing could be posed the other way around: is getting pulled over for a lane change and having a meltdown worth getting put in handcuffs over?

Smoking in your own vehicle is not a crime. The cop has no reason to even request she put the cigarette out. Hand her the ticket and be done with it. The cop acted like a total asshat. I do not believe for one second this woman hung herself in jail. The story just does not add up.

[LesActive]

The law is an opinion backed by a gun. I don't argue with someone whose opinion is unwavering even if they are wrong, especially if they are armed to the teeth. That being said, i would much prefer to be treated with civility (as, I'm sure, would y'all) than have to sue them later for damages. An officer who obtains submission through unlawful means is a proponent of "noble cause corruption". They skirt the policies that are in place to protect the public from police malfeasance. Is it wrong to question an unlawful procedure at the moment it happens? I don't believe so but it is certainly dangerous when it absolutely should not be. It is not our duty to help police in theirs. Some may think that it's a sign of a good member of society to go along with police orders but if those orders are unlawful should we not have the right to object without being perceived as a threat?

If a mere question is intimidating to an officer but does not further a threat against them physically I think it would behoove the officer to justify their position at that time rather than risk sanctioning later. After all, if they are 'correct' in their actions then they should be able to say why that is so which would take away that element of unlawfulness. Unfortunately, police are allowed to lie to get compliance and if you don't believe their lie then your disbelief may cost you, as in this unfortunate case of Sandra Bland, your life. That's a hefty fee for not believing a lie. Every 'law' written has the potential to cost someone their life. I am not cool with that.

If this society is on the path to a police policy of "comply or die" then how can you not say that we are headed to a stasi-like situation?

edited for grammar

Edited July 26, 2015 by LesActive

[Argus]

Yeah, that's super. You know damned well the cop is going to violate you, but you comply with him anyway to avoid getting abused, and ask for money to compensate you for the humiliation later on. That's awesome.

-k

It's unfortunate when adults act like total imbeciles, but you aren't going to be able to do much other than get them fired after the fact - which is what has happened in the majority of these cases, and sue their department. As has previously been discussed, Border Services can seize your phone when you enter the country too, and demand your password. If you don't give it they'll keep the phone and their tech guys will crack it. Maybe the smart thing to do is not keep naked pictures of yourself on a phone?

[On Guard for Thee]

And yet I've seen several legal comentaries on this so far which all say otherwise. He can indeed order her out of the car.

He doesn't have to show probable cause, but he has to give a reason.