U.S. and G5 + 1 Cave to Iran in Nuclear "Deal"

[Big Guy]

To TimG - My position on gun control - Whatever that particular country decides. As to hiding behind a mantle of sovereignty - if a nation is not able to decide what, how, when, where etc it wants to do things then it is not sovereign. A nation cannot be "sort of" sovereign or "kind of" sovereign except for ... Either it has a right to make its own decisions about every aspect of its existence or it does not.

In the last few years, we have ignored the right of sovereignty of Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Libya and Afghanistan. Look where it got us.

As to the other anti-this-deal folks - No one has explained what kind of deal could have been reached that is better than this one and acceptable to Iran - because if it is not acceptable to Iran then there is no deal.

To jbg, sharkman et al- One of three things can happen:

1. No deal - Iran continues to develop the nuclear bomb unless it is attacked by someone - war now.

2. This deal does not work in the long run and Iran cheats and is attacked by someone - war later.

3. This deal works and Iran does not develop a nuclear device and establishes better relations with the West.

So do you want a war now, a war later or a chance there will be no war?

[WWWTT]

What cash have they been given right now? Unless I'm mistaken, the easing of sanctions etc. is gradual and is based on Iran complying to terms of the deal.

It is not clear to me why any deal was required. Seems to me this was a self centered exercise on the part of Obama to create a legacy except his legacy will likely been how took the shackles off a state known to support terrorism in return for promises that mean nothing (i.e. sure sanctions go back on by Iran will have time to prepare for them when they do).

LOL!

Man, the both of you are really ignorant of who is pulling the strings here aren't you?

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/16/371515/brics-back-irans-nuclear-right/

http://eng.iran.ru/news/analytics/124/On_joining_Iran_in_the_SCO_and_BRICS

I think Iranians see that extremists aren't going to move their country forward.

Joining BRICS would definitely propel them forward.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

There's no "faith" in this deal. It's based on verifiable observation by inspectors. If Iran breaks terms of the deal they will be punished again by sanctions, and talk of attacking them will resume.

Why would Iran let inspectors in before when it would provide them with little or no benefit?

I'm sure part of the deal that we're not hearing about is that the inspectors will be from BRICS countries!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

The United States has very little to offer Iran. Their major trading partners are in Europe and Asia. The US needs to repair its diplomatic relationship with Iran if it's going to make any strides with them.

This is one of the more realistic comments here in this thread.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

That's absurd. The lifting of sanctions for one.

It helps.

But more so from Europe.

WWWTT

[sharkman]

This is one of the more realistic comments here in this thread.

WWWTT

Nonsense, Iran would love to get their hands on various technologies on everything from food and water production to manufacturing and military. And of course loans and oil purchases too. That's just off the top of my head.

[Shady]

King Barack hasn't taken too kindly to people criticizing his new agreement. He's had especially harsh words for members of the pesky press corps. Like why it was so necessary to trade with the Taliban for a known military deserter, but not necessary when it came to 4 people being held against their will by the Iranian regime. In the prior instance he said it was because America doesn't leave people behind. So how does that square now? What a miserable failure of a leader.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Shady

[On Guard for Thee]

King Barack hasn't taken too kindly to people criticizing his new agreement. He's had especially harsh words for members of the pesky press corps. Like why it was so necessary to trade with the Taliban for a known military deserter, but not necessary when it came to 4 people being held against their will by the Iranian regime. In the prior instance he said it was because America doesn't leave people behind. So how does that square now? What a miserable failure of a leader.

A hell of a lot better leader than the Bush Cheney charade wouldn't you say? Cheney said... "we don't negotiate with evil, we defeat it." Well chalk up another failure from that horror show righty government. Obama is showing the way.

[WWWTT]

Nonsense, Iran would love to get their hands on various technologies on everything from food and water production to manufacturing and military. And of course loans and oil purchases too. That's just off the top of my head.

From watching Chinese news, I believe the Iranians see this as more of an symbolic gesture.

I'm sure there are advantages to opening trade with the US. After all they are the second largest economy, still.

The Iranians have to sell off everything at cheap cheap prices because their market is limited and they have to use the Indian Rupee. This deal will help them negotiate a better price now that their market is expanded.

But what this deal really shows, is the arm twisting power of BRICS!

BRICS is dead set on expanding and Iran is on that list!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

King Barack hasn't taken too kindly to people criticizing his new agreement.

Iran has charged those people with espionage.

Funny how Guantanamo is cool though hey?

WWWTT

[Shady]

Iran has charged those people with espionage.

Funny how Guantanamo is cool though hey?

WWWTT

Oh yes, I'm sure the pastor and the journalist are professional spies. Hey, maybe the Canadian journalist that Iran beat to death a few years ago was also a spy! That's some funny shit!

[WWWTT]

Oh yes, I'm sure the pastor and the journalist are professional spies. Hey, maybe the Canadian journalist that Iran beat to death a few years ago was also a spy! That's some funny shit!

Only commenting on why those people are in jail.

Many more people go there and return so it's not like that these are the only people that have visited Iran.

Cops in North America kill innocent people almost everyday, so even if these jailed people are wrongly convicted, you seem to have a disproportionate sense of sympathy for them.

Either way, 4 people aren't going to stop the BIG MONEY! Never has, never will my friend.

WWWTT

[jbg]

King Barack hasn't taken too kindly to people criticizing his new agreement. He's had especially harsh words for members of the pesky press corps. Like why it was so necessary to trade with the Taliban for a known military deserter, but not necessary when it came to 4 people being held against their will by the Iranian regime. In the prior instance he said it was because America doesn't leave people behind. So how does that square now? What a miserable failure of a leader.

Thanks for reminding me. At least you have, at least for now, a good leader.

[Rue]

Actually the deal is not based on verifiable inspections as MMoonlight Graham stated.. Not at all. Iran has refused to allow certain areas open to the UN as part of this deal. It would help if people actually read this absurd deal and the amount of deliberately open ended wording that makes it a farse but allows the US to safe face and act like they got a deal.

1. For the duration of this agreement of 10 years nothing stops Iran from continuing to develop and improve its centrifuge machines that are used to fuel its reactors and bombs-the existing centrifuge machines were never scaled back and Iran openly bragged how they have more than enough centrifuges to continue making nuclear weapons. Nothing stops them. The wording says Iran should not enrich uranium for 10 years but that is based on trust. There is no enforcement procedure to prevent enrichment and this is why the US openly has admitted if Iran ignores the US all they can do is reinstate the sanctions. Read the damn agreement though, it has no wayto force in inspectors to regularly monitor all Iranian nuke sites to assure enrichment is not going on and it could be easily hidden from the inspectors to start with.

2. Iran said it would provide evidence of its past nuclear weapons work for the IAEA who are then supposed to write a report within 5 months.. To date everytime Iran is asked a question on its nuke capacity it either has refused to answer or given false information proven to be false-in fact the IAEA warned it is unable and remains unable to access all nuclear sites in Iran and nothing in this agreement has opened up all its sites for inspection.

3. The IAEA is supposed to release a report within 5 months in regards to Iran's past nuclear development activities which is supposed to verify its actual status as of now....how? How will they get access to over 25 years of information let alone summarize that in 5 months let alone suddenly be given access many sites Iran unilaterally will not allow to be inspected?

4.The agreement says within 8.5 years Iran can test up to 30 of its advanced centrifuge machines. What a joke. It tests them daily.

5.The deal says after 15 years Iran can enrich uranium "close" to bomb-grade (it did not define what "close" means) and to expand enrichment facilities to more than 1 facility. What a joke. It already has bomb-grade materials according to its own public media which broadcast this bragging how it could and would blow Israel up with nuclear weapons broadcast on its television complete with computer generated films of Israel going kaboom. Since the agreement is only 10 years and expires how does it magically continue to apply another 5?

6. The agreement says Iran can't build plutonium reprocessing plants or new heavy water reactors. It already has both, brags it has both and prevents the UN from inspecting them.

7. The agreement focuses only on limiting activities at the Fordo nuclear facility and completely ignores all other nuclear facilities that exist because the IAEA could not visit them.

This agreement is a monumental farse.

It reinstates arms and funds to a nation that is the no.1 nation of the world financing terrorists.

How the hell does the UN ignore its activities in regards to funding and training terrorists that kill innocent civilians, break all laws, and invades and challenges the sovereignty of nations? Iran fuels an illegal civil war in Yemen, another in Bahrain, it funds Hezbollah who illegally hold Lebanlon hostage and props Assad in Syria, funds Taliban in Afghanistan and calls for the termination of Israel as a Jewish state with force.

As the idiot Barak Hussein Obama announced this deal with Iran he also announced extended bombings in Afghanistan against Taliban now being assisted by Iran. What insanity is this?

Barak Hussein Obama has capitulated to Iran thinking it should be the US's primary ally in the ME. This is the Carter doctrine advanced by Zbigniew Brezinski his adviser for the ME who is in his 80's and is a certifiable lunatic, anti-smite and obsessed with Russia.. Brezinski's foreign polic approach was rejected by Kissinger, Ford, Reagan, Clinton , Fullbright, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., 3 former British M's and three French Presidents not to mention Germany, Canada and Holland.

Now the pith and substance is this-Hussein Obaa has the audacity to tell Israel what is good for it. This is a President who presented himself as openly allied with the Muslim Brotherhood including Morsi and Erdogan.He trained and funded ISIL which was supposed to after deposing Ghaddafi, move into Syria and depose Assad. He would then have his Sunni Brotherhood ally with the Shiites posing Yemen as the example of how the two could live side by side. He propped a Shitte leader in Iraq who began massacring Sunnis causing ISIL to break off from Al Quaeda and turn on the Shiites and Iran.

The idiot could not envision that the sunni extremists he propped would turn on him and the Shiites he now tries to suck up to have already turned on him.

Here is Hussein Obama thinking he can use Iran to crush the rogue ISIL. What an idiot.

He's also a liar.

When elected he said he would never ally with any Muslim extremist. Within a year of office he said there was no such thing as a Muslim extremist only an extremist. This is someone whose half brother finances the continued genocide of Christians in Sudan and whose blood father supports Muslim extremists in Kenya, Nigeria and Somalia while his step father supported Mulim extremists in Indonesia, the Philippines and Pakistan.

But hey we are not supposed to mention that. Its racist to point out his grandparents were on one side Muslim extremists and on the otherside anti American Marxist-Leninist and that his personal pastor is the Rev.Wright who is openly a pro Muslim extremist, racist and blatant anti-Semite.

This is the same Barak Hussein Obama who stated in his first debate with Bush he would never recognize Hamas as anything but a terrorist organization until it denounced its charter, disarmed and agreed to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

This same liar, now defines Hamas and Hezbollah are peace partners, says the denouncing of their extermination of Israel charters is not necessary, their disarming is unnecessary and their allegiance to the US is not even necessary.

Then he states there is no one need to recognize Israel as a Jewish state or denounce a charter calling for its destruction or disassembly as a Jewish state as he insisted he would demand if President. He out and out lied.

He hid his anti Israel agenda until his second election results.

This man now after lying to Israel has the nerve to send Kerry to Jerusalem posing as a mediator lecturing Israel it can not be expected to be recognized as a Jewish state, that is unreasonable, and expecting terrorists to disarm is unreasonable, and Israel should withdraw to its 1967 borders exposing it to direct terror attacks and Netanyahu was chicken shit as he said for expecting assurances that they would not be attacked if they withdrew to the 67 borders.

Kerry openly during the war with Hamas and a peace arrangement drafted by the PA and Egypt which Israel agreed to, told Hamas to keep fighting.

This is the same Kerry who went to Jerusalem and stated it would be reasonable to have another intifadah if Israel did not unilaterally withdraw to 1967 borders with no assurance terrorists would disarm first.

Now the ever grinning Obama pulls a Neville Chamberlain and says peace in our day- and holds up an unenforceable agreement, that allows lifting of sanctions which will directly fuel and ignite a Shiite war against Sunnis...

This deal will not be accepted in Congress and Obama will veto the actions of Congress once again and in so doing also ignore many of his own democrats against this idiot agreement.

It will become an election issue,Clinton will be exposed for her sell out of the US in Libya with Obama-she will be tossed aside like the lying lackey she was, and the Republican nomination looking more and more like Bush whose wife is Mexican-American and who will win over Latino votes as well as unify the formerly disillusioned powerful Christian evangelist movement along with unemployed democrats, will come in, distance the US from Iran .

The Iran agreement is no different than the one Clinton rushed through with North Korea an Bush got stuck with.

The US will rebalance this fiasco.

This is the pathetic attempt by the worst US foreign policy President to try create a legacy.He will be looked back at as a man who incited and ignited anti-semitis, uslim extremism, condoned with silence the mass murder of Christians and propped governents and terrorists who in the name of Allah killed indiscriminately.

Its the legacy of an idiot leftist someone in the name of presumption, arrogance, and conceit, carried out narcissistic idiocy.... a boy brought up to believe he was the chosen one and could do no wrong and did nothing but that insulting along the way each and every ally of the US and for what?

What will his legacy be? A raging melt down in the ME, Russia running amuck in Europe and China expanding in the Pacific crushing anyone in its path including the Koreas, Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam.

Barak Hussein Obama the grinning Cheshire cat.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Rue

[sharkman]

Epic post, Rue. Time and history will not be kind to Obama.

[Rue]

Sharkie you want epic, go to WIP's take on Obama in the US section. Dead on and he doesn't make spelling mistakes!

The point though is this, the actual treaty is not enforceable. There is no physical ability to send inspectors into Iran and give them open ended access to all nuclear sites. At best they must give Iran advanced warning when they are coming and are physically limited to only certain sites and only certain parts of those sites rendering the agreement worthless.

If you actually start reading this agreement you will notice references to words that are so ambiguous in term that it is embarrassing someone would wave it about. People need to read the agreement and not rely on sound bites from the internet.

The very words of Obama-its better than nothing-showed his defeatist, passive, approach before the fiasco exercise of negotiating with Iran began. It conceded the US was in a position of weakness. How does one possibly negotiate and do that?

For 8 years Obama has in each and every initial sentence put down the US describing it as weak and not in the position to lead anymore. The words flow from this defeated comment and no one has seen him as a leader, just a passive, weak, apologist to extremists.

What has his legacy done.?What has his bending over and showing his buttox to extremists and the world done to make is safer?

As much as Bush made mistakes, at no time did he leave the world in as vulnerable a state as it is now.

The insanity of Putin, the unbridled expansionism of China, the open chaos across the ME, are a direct result of a leadership vacuum he created.

The UN has shown it is no leader nor does it have the capacity to stabilize world conflict-its controlled and compromised by corrupt and terrorist nations and is silent on those nations financing terror.

Germany's leader tried to pick up some of the world leadership slack but the Nazi past of Germany makes it very difficult for her to command a position of trust in many nations that can not forget that legacy. France? Hollande and Sarkozy tried. They have tried to show leadership against terrorism but Obama screwed them in Africa. Cameron? He pulled the UK out of Iraq and Afghanistan and wants nothing to do with Obama barely concealing his contempt.

Obama threatened to expose all nuclear missile sites in the UK and France to Russia without getting consent from either nation to try placate Putin.

Obama's legacy? Take a look. He alienated and insulted all the US allies, Britain, France Germany, Canada, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Jordan.

Then for good measure he empowered Iran, Isil, Putin, China, all inspired by his incompetence to step up and push their own agendas with no US push back.

Domestically? How has he helped the middle and lower classes? Not a damn thing to show them. This is a man who posed himself as the master of negotiation and compromise and all he was able to achieve was a stalemated congress for his tenure in office.

He is a monumental failure. He belongs in the category of embarrassing US Presidents along with Taft and Carter.

Good Lord even Neville Chamberlain only used a napkin. Obama killed so many trees just to come up with the same useless agreement.He should have scribbled it on some of his Presidential office toilet paper.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Rue

[Big Guy]

I was watching the Sunday morning politico shows and some interesting new information surfaced. The negotiators were USA, UK, China, France, Russia, (plus Germany). The reason why there were so many delays was that three of these countries were prepared to accept terms far more favourable to Iran than the final deal. The USA kept negotiations alive trying to get more concessions from Iran since those three countries were prepared to negotiate their own agreements with Iran and drop sanctions - leaving the USA in a very awkward position.

I would suspect that China, Russia and France or Germany have little use for the sanctions and had let their positions known - that is only speculation since details are not available at this time.

Now we are in very uncomfortable situation. These countries are going to bring this "deal" home to be ratified. There will be no problems in China, Russia, France and should be no problems in Germany and the UK. If in some way the USA rejects this deal then they will find themselves alone with all the other countries dropping sanctions and re-establishing relations.

For these reasons I believe that this is a done deal and the quicker Canada approaches Iran as an ally then the better for us.

If we were really smart our government would immediately remove sanctions and establish those trading routes, materials and other goods before the rest of the world jumps in.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Big Guy

[bush_cheney2004]

Good luck with that...Canada is busy extending the free trade agreement with Israel instead.

[TimG]

For these reasons I believe that this is a done deal and the quicker Canada approaches Iran as an ally then the better for us.

Sorry, don't be ridiculous. Dropping sanctions is one thing. But treating Iran as an ally is as absurd as saying Canada should approach China or Russia as an "ally". The deal may have been better than the alternative but Iran will break it and Iran will eventually acquire nuclear weapons and trigger an arms races in the entire region. This is not a good thing. Edited July 19, 2015 by TimG

[Big Guy]

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

For some reason posters here and other people in Canada assume that if the USA does this then we also have to. We do not. We can have a foreign policy based on our needs and not those of the USA or Israel or ....

It was the USA embassy that was attacked and they are chanting "Death to America" not "Death to Canada" - not yet. Iran is reacting to American interference and their previous backing of the Shah Of Iran. They have no fight with Canada - until, of course, we decided to kowtow to American interests and its aggressive foreign policy and oil interests.

And if/when Iran becomes a nuclear nation then it will be an advantage to have established relations and trade interests. They may even choose to exchange that technology with us - unlike the USA.

Just because something is good for America and Israel does not mean it is good for Canada. For a long time our governments were able to keep us out of those American military "expeditions" into the Middle East. It is only recently that the current government has chosen us to get us involved. Our involvement has consequently proven to have done nothing good for Canada, costs $billions and hundreds of Canadian lives and instead has put us into the crosshairs of some very angry Middle Easterners.

Sometimes we forget that Canada is a sovereign nation.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Big Guy

[TimG]

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

That does not make an enemy an "ally". Allies require mutual trust. Canada cannot be an ally to a country like Iran.

[eyeball]

Right wingers hate this deal?

In that case there's probably no better indication that it's a good deal for the world.

[Big Guy]

Sorry Tim G - I do not believe that you ever "trust" another country. If the political, financial interests and global interests are similar and to mutual benefit then countries can be allies - until the next election or change in government.

The first priority of any federal government is to make things as good as possible for their own citizens. Obama does what he thinks is best for America, Netanyahu does what he thinks is best for Israel and Khamenei does what he thinks is best for Iran. Good for them, that is their job.

If/when a "friend" gets in the way of that goal then they become an "enemy". And the converse is true. When an "enemy" becomes an asset to that goal then they become a "friend". Remember the "Yellow Menace" and the "Murdering Hun" who are now our friends and trading partners. And remember those "Vietnamese Coomies" who kicked our butts? Our trade with them is in the $hundreds of millions.

To think of nations and peoples as good guys or bad guys is a simplistic excuse for not understanding the nature of man. To-days "terrorist" is tomorrows Nobel Peace Prize Winner (you know who) and to-days trusted ally is tomorrows "terrorist" (you know who).

Trust - but verify.

[TimG]

Sorry Tim G - I do not believe that you ever "trust" another country.

Actually, yes you can but it has a different meaning for states. It has to do with level of confidence that one has in the political/legal systems with in the country. For example, the US has its self interest but we can trust that it will live up to whatever agreements it signs based on how it treats its own citizens. We can have no confidence in states like Russia, China or Iran where citizens are routinely jailed or worse for the crime of criticizing the government.

To think of nations and peoples as good guys or bad guys is a simplistic excuse for not understanding the nature of man.

Nations which have the rule of law and protect the rights of their own citizens to disagree with the government are the "good guys". Countries that seek to suppress internal dissent are the "bad guys". This does not mean it is impossible to build working relationships with countries that fail to live up to our standards but such nations cannot be "allies".

[Big Guy]

To TimG - I wish I could agree but my interpretation of history tells me differently. Democracy is a very sophisticated social, organization. It requires that the individual is prepared to give up personal choice, financial control and other living conditions to someone in whom you may not trust. We have a situation in Canada where the vast majority of people voted for someone other than the governing party which has a majority and almost absolute power. The majority of voters still go along with this since we are familiar with what happens in other forms of government. Most emerging societies do not.

I believe that the basic need of people is (as per Maslow) physiological followed by security. Freedom and other psychological aspects come in later.

We have seen the unravelling of countries that "suppress internal dissent". The populace is not prepared for democracy and are far better under that form of social organization.

After the Soviet Union was dissolved, a very large part of the population complained about the criminality that was released with the freedom to steal without being executed for it.

Look what happened when the oppressive dictatorship of Yugoslavia was replaced by a form of self determination. They have yet to recover even after about a quarter of a million were killed. Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Somalia, Vietnam had governments which suppressed internal dissent until the West came in and gave them the freedom to start killing each other.

The USA will live up to any agreements that are helpful to the USA but even those can change with a change in government. Any agreement signed between nations is an agreement of the current government of one country with the current government of another country. Once a government changes - all agreements are off - unless the new government wants to recognize that agreement.