Immigration

[Civis Romanus sum]

It makes more sense for these refugees to choose between the countries who have participated in creating and maintaining instability there. Canada should take more Syrian and Libyan refugees.

Canada had nothing to do with the instability there. That can be laid at the doorstep of the local combatants.

[Rue]

Refugees and immigrants are different. A refugee is someone who will not as a general rule meet any qualifications for language skills and other transferable skills when they appear in Canada. There is a UN definition for them which we agree to abide by when determining application of treatment of refugees in Canada but that is but one segment of refugees.

In fact most refugees defined as refugees under the UN definition are supposed to be escaping some sort of discrimination. So they are allowed to jump the line to speak and qualified for speeded up entry into Canada. The definition under the UN treaty is very loose and enables many persons who would otherwise not qualify as immigrants to slide themselves in under that definition. So many who call them selves refugees are in fact economic migrants.

Most of the displaced Syrians and Iraqis flooding Europe probably would qualify under the UN definition while other Middle East and Afrian and Asian migrants would not. Most of you have no idea what the difference is between an immigrant,refugee, economic migrant etc. The words are thrown about loosely.

Here is the point. An immigrant as a general rule is selected in based on their ability to assimilate to contribute to Canada. So we measure language and transferable occupational skills and other factors to look for compatibility and that includes being able to contribute to our economy, pay taxes, follow the laws, and not cost us in medical expenditures. more than they contribute. Yes those are the objective criteria used. Some of you feel there should be none and we just take anyone. Others feel w have no unlimited capacity to do that without bankrupting our government and causing social turmoil negatively impacting throughout the nation.

As a general rule no one has a problem with immigrants coming in to fill jobs we have a shortage of professionals with the expertise for and who assimilate and positively build Canada.

Where we in fact have problems are with immigrants whose job skills are not needed, can not speak English or French, an or have strong values in direct opposition to those which are the basis for this country's moral values. They want it both ways. They demand all the benefits of being Canadian but retaining their former country's citizenship where they return to, when they retire collecting a Canadian pension and send the money the hide from taxes to.

That is when things get tense. We all know of new Canadians who abuse the system and show no loyalty to this country and look at us and say, hey, offer those benefits-of course I take them. You put out free food, of course people will eat it they say.

That's the issue-are the people we take in capable of assimilating and contributing and adding positively in Canada or will they be a burden and cause social and criminal problems and demand things but not offer anything back.

We also have a sub-class of migrants who come for free medical care because in their countries they will die, in our country with our medical care they live. Many of these people leave once healthy or are Americans with fake OHIP cards as well. Others stay because they need permanent treatment. Many countries have families that literally dump their mentally ill, geriatrics or chronic care citizens in Canada. Its better than a death sentence at home. In Canada they get a social net they would not get at home. Even those who fall through the cracks and become our homeless in many case do better than those in their native countries.

Now what we see in Europe is a mix of desperate African and Asian migrants moving as a result of man made desertification which has made the land they live on unsustainable and is inter-connected with draughts, famines, floods. earthquakes and other natural disasters which may or may not be the result of man made activities. Such people move out of desperation not because they want to. Its basic primal need-the need for food and water.

Then we have of course a tidal wave of displaced Iraqis, Syrians, Yemenis, Bahrainians. Sudanese, all Muslim, and who flee Muslim civil wars, do not speak English or other European languages, have lived in non technological subsistence societies are semi or fully illiterate, have a range of medical and psychological issues, and believe in a set of moral values in direct conflict with those of the nations they head to.

The world has shrunk and so movement is much easier. With the creation of the cell phone, communications are instantaneous enabling coyotes (human smugglers) to move desperate people quickly by boat, truck and plane.

Some of you of course have an anti West agenda so you blame it all on the US or Israel the the two most popular piss on targets on this forum. he fact is human migration has always occurred in cycles due to environmental, medical and political factors. The only difference now is the media tells you much faster who is moving and where. The movement was always there the media just did not focus in on it in the past. Its a news trendy story just like apartheid was, the genocide in Sudan, Ukraine, but the media soon will tire of its trendy news item of the day and find a new source of liberal guilt where upon you can assuage your guilt feelings by pretending you can save the world by simply taking in migrants.

Its easy to feel that way when "migrants" are an impersonal subject matter, i.e., someone you can't smell, hear, look at physically one on one in person. Then its sanitary and you can wax poetic on what should be done. However the same ones of you who wax poetic are the first to turn intolerant and when someone disagrees with you and that will include these "migrants" if they move near you. Who you kidding... you trendy leftist guilt ridden lot can't stand Americans, Israelis, Jews, Christians, caucasians people who vote for Harper or disagree with you and you pose as tolerant concerned world citizens and claim anyone who disagrees with you is a racist or intolerant.

Bottom line is, most of these migrants have serious psychological, medical and socio-economic issues that serve as gigantic barriers to assimilation. Getting across an ocean, surviving a suffocating truck, running through borders with no food and not sleeping for nights on end is just the beginning. The second part of the nightmare is when this wave of desperate people gets to the land of Oz and realizes the Wizard never existed and the streets aren't paved with gold. The trap then sinks in and they go to jail called ghettoes where they do not assimilate.

That is their fate and you liberal guilt ridden posers of humanity won't give a flying phack. You are too busy driving you suv's, and hanging at shopping malls or locked in Mama's basement on the internet watching porn in between sortes on to political forums to sound expert on world affairs and pissing on people like Argus for telling you to get the phack out of your dream world and look around. Ditch the politically correct denial and take a good long smell at what is coming.

Guilt will not change the cold hard reality that people will continue to die and the news will grow tired of the sound bites of drowned children popping up on shore and move on like you to a new trendy cause.

Long after you move on to your next trendy issue, where you can act morally smug at some bullsheeyit fundraiser, Europe will reconstruct borders between their countries-elaborate state of the art ones where movement will be detected by satellite and other technology- ironically probably created by Israel. Hey now how its easy to criticize Israel for its supposed refugee problem until you need there help. Watch how fast borders are going to go up by the same countries who criticized Israel for having a security wall.

Ships will be intercepted at sea and sent to islands where refugees will be placed and contained and linger. for years with the claim they will be repatriated back to their countries once the wars end.

The problem is of course reality will also kick in and many will not want to returm or turn on each other in congested camps. Its also only a matter of time until the lack of sanitary conditions with these migrants bringing infectious diseases causing the need to quarrantine them.

The press does not like to talk about stds, aids, cancer, heart disease, mental illlness, diabetes, chicken pox, mumps, tuberculosis, viruses resistant to anti-biotics and highly infectious bacterial infections carried in human excrement, saliva or mucus,.

The movement of millions creates serious medical issues let alone security issues as to trying to screen out people who are pedophiles, rapists, terrorists, schizophrenic, etc.

With migrants come pressing medical and emotional needs that require a huge support structure of doctors, nurses, social workers, beds and shelter, food, clothing. Our NGO's can not do more than what they do. They are swamped.

Those kinds of issues liberal guilty don't talk about. Their sanitized take on the issue will not allow them to accept we are faced with hard choices where we can not simply open the gates and anyone can go wherever they want and just show up and all will be fine.

You really give a shit, figure out the support needed to absorb people who can not assimilate in Canada, will be a medical and social burden and may cause several generations of dependent families some of whom will commit crime, join terrorist organizations and pass on mental and other illnesses.

Jews faced this issue not long ago. The UN ignored us. The West and East ignored us. We had no choice but to return whence we came and when faced with extermination yet again after the holocaust a second time, we fought for our existential existence and survived.

The difference? We had no country and depended on the generosity of individual gentiles or ourselves. We could not rely on the world. The US and France did absorb Jews, the rest of the world did not. Argentina did if you paid.So most of us had no choice and went to Israel and Israel survived thanks to one gentile, Elenor Roosevelt who demanded the world no turn its back on us.

Today's refugees need choices not phony tears. We can absorb some, but we must place most back in their own nations by assisting stable democratic regimes rebuild their countries with sustainability projects, social and medical institutions, water and energy systems.

That can not happen as long as Muslims kill each other and blame their problems on Jews, the West, Christians, the US, on and on.. T

There is plenty of space in all of the ME and please do not tell me he Muslim world does not have the funds. They are creating this tragedy they need to step up. They remained silent to Palestinians using them as pawns, now they do the same over their displaced people. Enough.

This blaming the West for their corruption, tyranny, fundamentalist intolerance is a crock.

Boca Raton, The Muslim Brotherhood in Sudan, ISIL, Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran. Islamic Jihad, Al Quaeda, Taliban are Muslims claiming to do what they do in the name of Islam and claiming any Muslim who does not agree with them is not a Muslim and should die.

That is a fact some of you can't admit because you are closeted Muslims and afraid to admit who you are and what you stand for. Well? Show me one Muslim willing to come on this board, call the Syrian war a MUSLIM problem. Just one.Show me one Muslim who will come on this board and condemn the Muslims of the ME for their intolerance of each other, Christians, or Jews.

Aint gonna happen.

Not so long ago my family took in refugees from Uganda fleeing persecution-their crime-being genetically linked to Indo Pakistanis. Whether they were Muslim, Christian or Hindu, Idi Amin did not care. My grandparents fleed pogroms and Nazis. One of the first people we helped was a Ukranian fleeing Stalin forced famine and her family was pro Nazi.

No one need lecture me on what it means to flee. Its why I agree with Argus and can't stand you meely mouthed politically correct leftist guilt ridden clique on this board. You have nothing but contempt for us in a way Argus does not. You would get that if you came to this country to flee b.s. and start again embracing a way of life in Canada that we welcome precisely because it rejects fundamentlist extremism. Thank you I did not cease being a Jew because I live in a Christian society where the head of state is the head of the

Anglican church. No Anglican ever spat at me. All they expected and never asked for is I work and contribute.

Yah there are Canadians who will never accept me because I am a Jew. It made me stronger, not a victim. It aint Christians. Its you b.s. leftists who think the only good Jew is one who does not know their place, i.e., in our own country or as a contributor to Canada where we ask for nothing and expect nothing like the other immigrants who came hear, i.e., the Italians, Portugese, Irish, Ukes, Dukhabors. Chinese, Indian, Filippino, Jamaicans, East Euros fleeing communism, Latin Americans, etc.

We did not come here asking favours and we do not want any but don't insult our intelligence that Canada just can be anything to anyone. There was a price to pay-the blood sweat and tears of our ancestors who came here, and then our soldiers.

It did not come instantaneously. It took hard work pain and the reality that not all of us would make it.

Whining about the West will not offer a solution.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Rue

[PIK]

Trudeau nows say we need to bring in 30,000 people from Syria TODAY, not over time but now. Does he not realize how stupid that would be?

[Mighty AC]

This is an interesting report that shows how dramatically immigration in Canada has changed over the last 10-15 years. Definitely, worth reading.

Never Home: Legislating Discrimination in Canadian Immigration finds that citizenship is becoming harder to get and easier to lose. Permanent residency for refugees, skilled workers and family members is restricted, but the migrant worker program is exploding. Enforcement, in the form of detentions, deportations and secret trials, is also on the rise. Pervasive sentiments such as “bogus refugees”, “terrorists”, and “foreigners stealing jobs” have justified the increasing exclusion and marginalization of migrants. If migrants are allowed in, it is with temporary, conditional or precarious status.

Context

In 2009, the Conservative government oversaw the largest immigration raid in recent Canadian history, during which Canadian Border Services Agency officers stormed farms, factories and homes to detain over 100 non-status workers in Ontario. Two years later, the federal government announced the ‘four in and four out’ rule that now bars the renewal of work permits for foreign workers who have been working in Canada for four years. As a result of this policy, an estimated 70,000 low-waged migrant workers are facing the possibility of expulsion from 2015 onwards. This is one of the largest mass deportations in Canadian history.

[Mighty AC]

[Civis Romanus sum]

I believe we already take in more immigrants than we can properly resettle and integrate. We take in more under Harper than we did under Chretien, so I'm not sure what exactly people are complaining about. Is it simply that you want us to accept anyone and everyone who wants to live here?

Edited September 3, 2015 by Civis Romanus sum

[Big Guy]

Canada had nothing to do with the instability there. That can be laid at the doorstep of the local combatants.

So I assume those bombs we are now dropping on Syria and Iraq, the bombs we dropped on Libya and our participation in Afghanistan had nothing to do with it? There were no local combatants until we got involved.

[On Guard for Thee]

I believe we already take in more immigrants than we can properly resettle and integrate. We take in more under Harper than we did under Chretien, so I'm not sure what exactly people are complaining about. Is it simply that you want us to accept anyone and everyone who wants to live here?

In fact when you look at %'s, immigration under Harper has been significantly less than under Chretien.

[eyeball]

I believe we already take in more immigrants than we can properly resettle and integrate. We take in more under Harper than we did under Chretien, so I'm not sure what exactly people are complaining about. Is it simply that you want us to accept anyone and everyone who wants to live here?

For starters I'd like to see us accept that human beings are fleeing the ME in the first place because of all the weapons and reasons to use them the world including us, has been flooding the region with the last 100 years or more.

Clearly the planet has more refugees than anyone can properly resettle and integrate so it stands to reason that we should stop doing the things that are contributing to there being more refugees....we should have been doing this decades and decades ago but unfortunately we've been busy making things worse.

That's what we really really need to accept most of all.

[Army Guy]

So I assume those bombs we are now dropping on Syria and Iraq, the bombs we dropped on Libya and our participation in Afghanistan had nothing to do with it? There were no local combatants until we got involved.

Not exactly what your implying here BG, your posts read like it was because of those bombings that the middle east is in the shape it is today...we should have stay away from those places, let them deal with their own problems.....forget about 9/11, forget the problems in Libya, and ISIL....bury our heads in the sand.....

Do you think that had we stayed out of these places we would not being seeing the humanitarian crises we are seeing today, that millions would not be trying to flee these countries.....

I can tell you this the majority of combatants in Afghan were not hunger afghan farmers trying to earn a wage but foreign born muslims from around the world, Khadrs come to mind.....

[Army Guy]

In fact when you look at %'s, immigration under Harper has been significantly less than under Chretien.

According to the news Harper has said under the cons 2.5 million immigrants have made Canada home....

[Mighty AC]

According to the news Harper has said under the cons 2.5 million immigrants have made Canada home....

Down significantly since Harper has been at the helm. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24654-immigration/?p=1085696

[Army Guy]

It makes more sense for these refugees to choose between the countries who have participated in creating and maintaining instability there. Canada should take more Syrian and Libyan refugees.

How does that make any sense....in your mind you've already wrapped all the blame for these conflicts in a nice neat package and placed it at the feets of NATO and her allieds..and will not admit that these problems require more than just accepting refugees, and giving them little humanitarian packages.....it also requires to take direct action again'st those creating the problems....

If we had decided as a nation not to take direct action, do you really think the world would not be facing the crises we see on tv today......and what would be the repercussions of staying out of these conflicts.... to groups such as ISIL....do you think it would give them pause to rethink creating the nightmare they live in now....with no one being held accountable...thats the solution turn the other cheek, accept all these refugees without concerns , it is exactly what ISIL wants to ethnically cleanse a nation so they are free to live under their own twisted version of Islam.....

[Army Guy]

Down significantly since Harper has been at the helm. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24654-immigration/?p=1085696

So your saying 2.5 million people over Harpers term is not enough, considering we are a nation of just over what 40 million....2.5 million sounds a little high...

[Big Guy]

...we should have stay away from those places, let them deal with their own problems.....forget about 9/11, forget the problems in Libya, and ISIL....bury our heads in the sand.....

Before we got involved in the Middle East, there was a delicate balance of power among the dictators who controlled the Middle East. We did not like the leadership in those countries so we took them out and chaos ensued. 9/11 was a problem that we could have dealt with without crippling Afghanistan. ISIS was the result of American inability in Iraq. To-day they now see what happened to the 50,000 elite Sunni Republican Guard which "disappeared" after the USA went into Baghdad and declared victory. The original "problems" in Libya, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan etc had nothing to do with us.

To keep out of other nations is not burying your head in the sand. Involvement in conflicts involves very tricky decisions and much evaluation. When you decide to invade or start dropping bombs you have to consider the consequences and responsibilities of that action.

Refugees are people seeking refuge. They are looking for a place where they will not be killed. Those folks in Iraq, Syria, Gaza, Afghanistan, Yemen, Iraq used to have it before we helped destroyed their infrastructure and social order.

I certainly believe that we would not be having that humanitarian crisis that we have caused to-day.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Big Guy

[Rue]

I am sympathetic to genuine war refugees as most are. The question is how many do you take because to do that you must be prepared for major support facilities and services. Humanitarian aid and support yes but it requires planning and proper support.

It would be conceivable to take in 30,000 but they would be entitled to rights under the Charter meaning they would all want to live in Toronto, not move to small towns across Canada and many would reject Canadian values or assimilate.

Is that racist to say? Is it unfair to say, Syrians that would be most likely to make it in Canada speak English and have transferable skills and would be more realistic to accept? Is that unfair or realistic? Are we setting up simpler, non skilled refugees with failure dropping them in Canada?

Seems to be the Arab league of Nations is sitting on its ass refusing once again to step in and assist its people seek assistance.

Where has the Arab League been in all this fiasco? What do they do exactly? When will they take responsibility for their people?

Israel took in 10,000 Muslims during the Yugoslav disintegration. They were settled in Northern Israel. They have for the most part done well.

Israel was inundated with Sudanese refugees coming in through Egypt and had to say no. It just does not have the space or facilities.

Jordan and Turkey have taken in the most Syrians. Sunni Syrians don't dare go to Lebanon fearing Hezbollah who are out to kill them.

It leaves me asking Oman, the most wealthy nation in the world. what the phack is your problem taking in Syrians. You have a population of 250,000, dependent on 3 million cheap Muslim foreign labourers to keep you in your lifestyle, get off your complacent asses and take Syrian refugees in.

I say the same to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE. As for Iran, the displacement of Sunni Muslims is a key agenda item for them. It keeps the Arab league in confusion which is their goal. They literally have the Sunni Muslim world on the run with their support of Hezbollah, Syria, and terrorists in Bahrain, Syria, Yemen.

[Mighty AC]

So your saying 2.5 million people over Harpers term is not enough, considering we are a nation of just over what 40 million....2.5 million sounds a little high...

A 30% lower acceptance rate of refugees is a problem. Setting deportation quotas to strip refugee claimants of their status is a bad idea. Also making it harder to reunite immigrants with their family is a problem.

Yet, under Harper temporary migrant worker program has exploded. Harper is fine with wage depressing, cheap labour but not so comfortable housing those displaced by war.

[Army Guy]

Before we got involved in the Middle East, there was a delicate balance of power among the dictators who controlled the Middle East. We did not like the leadership in those countries so we took them out and chaos ensued. 9/11 was a problem that we could have dealt with without crippling Afghanistan. ISIS was the result of American inability in Iraq. To-day they now see what happened to the 50,000 elite Sunni Republican Guard which "disappeared" after the USA went into Baghdad and declared victory. The original "problems" in Libya, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan etc had nothing to do with us.

To keep out of other nations is not burying your head in the sand. Involvement in conflicts involves very tricky decisions and much evaluation. When you decide to invade or start dropping bombs you have to consider the consequences and responsibilities of that action.

Refugees are people seeking refuge. They are looking for a place where they will not be killed. Those folks in Iraq, Syria, Gaza, Afghanistan, Yemen, Iraq used to have it before we helped destroyed their infrastructure and social order.

I certainly believe that we would not be having that humanitarian crisis that we have caused to-day.

Is that how you described it a delicate balance, interesting i mean because these guys were actually responsible for killing more of their citizens than was killed in the direct military action you say started this wave of refugees....

ISIL was always there, buried just beneath the surface kept in check, by Sadam through the use of force and death....The US did not create ISIL, it gave them the freedom to carry out their twisted version of Islam....thats is one of the draw backs of democracy.....it does not control its people with an iron thumb....But democracy is just for the west.....

No the refugees are not looking for just safety...they have that in the first country they landed in....so why are they heading deeper into europe....why are they risking everything to get there.....when they have safety already.....

And how do we solve this problem....because it is not going to stop any time soon.....do you think that immigration and aid will solve it....and what message becaue most believe that all the problems of this mess need to be addressed.....refugees, aid and boots on the ground.....if not we might as well just start empting out middle eastern countries and bowing to groups like ISIL, giving them everything they want.

[Scotty]

It makes more sense for these refugees to choose between the countries who have participated in creating and maintaining instability there. Canada should take more Syrian and Libyan refugees.

Are you blaming Canada for starting the Arab Spring? Because there was a ton of fighting over there before we sent over half a dozen old fighters to drop the occasional bomb. Likewise the Iraqi mess is not ours and we didn't arrive at the scene until long after the place fell apart.

[Scotty]

So I assume those bombs we are now dropping on Syria and Iraq, the bombs we dropped on Libya and our participation in Afghanistan had nothing to do with it? There were no local combatants until we got involved.

That is an out and out nonsensical lie. The fighting in Syria, Iraq and Libya was well underway long before anyone even suggested western powers should 'do something' to put an end to it.

[Scotty]

In fact when you look at %'s, immigration under Harper has been significantly less than under Chretien.

Cite. Here are the reports to parliament for 2005, the last year of Chretien's reign, and for 2014.

Canada became home to 235,824 new permanent residents in 2004.

http://Canada admitted 258,953 new permanent residents in 2013, a slight increase over 2012 (257,887) and a higher level than the average number of admissions from 2009–2013 (257,000).

Edited September 3, 2015 by Scotty

[Scotty]

According to the news Harper has said under the cons 2.5 million immigrants have made Canada home....

Not enough! There are still a few Canadian born people around! We need more millions of foreigners!

[Scotty]

Down significantly since Harper has been at the helm. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/24654-immigration/?p=1085696

I'm not interested in your silly little diagrams from immigrant activists.

[Big Guy]

According to the figures I can find, about 150,000 Iraqi civilians and about 200,000 Syrian civilians have been killed in this latest conflict. To the best of my knowledge, ISIS is made of the remnants of the Republican Guard that became unemployed when we took Saddam out. If we did not created then who did.

I believe that we have a very different understanding of what caused this refugee crisis. These folks are fleeing their homeland because their homeland is too dangerous to live in anymore. We had a lot to do with that.

What do we do. Get out of there the faster the better. The sooner the Sunnis and Shia can find a winner the sooner the refugees can go home. Stay out of the Middle East. Let them work out their own problems and once the winners are declared then deal with them.

[Mighty AC]

I'm not interested in your silly little diagrams from immigrant activists.

I'm not interested in your ideology before facts approach.