cybercoma Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) We have to be equal to be treated equal ,but the natives has special rights, that the rest do not.I bet you'd just love to have that "special right" of living on a reserve with substandard housing, water & sewage, education, healthcare, etc. Edited June 9, 2015 by cybercoma Quote
cybercoma Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 They were nothing but savages when the euros showed upI found the racist idiot who hasn't read a history book. Quote
TimG Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Fine for you to say when you're already treated as an equal and have had the benefit of generations of advantages and privileges to support you.You know nothing about what advantages I may or may not have benefited from. If you are talking about the benefits of being a Canadian then every native in Canada has those exact same benefits in addition to the various privileges they get for being natives. But you touch on the most ludicrous part of the argument for aboriginal apartheid state: historical disadvantage. Disadvantage is transitory and in a generation or two we could see natives becoming much wealthier than average Canadians and if that happens they will still be entitled to their various constitutional privileges which "social justice" activists justify today. That is why such privileges do NOT belong in the constitution and are morally wrong in an egalitarian society. Edited June 9, 2015 by TimG Quote
PIK Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Actually cy I have . I have read a lot of the native culture before the euros came over. So it is not I that needs to read a book. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
PIK Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Cy I have lived and still live in a sub standard house. I lived many yrs without indoor plumbing or insulation. I have over the ysr corrected most of that ,but still a long way to go. And guess what I don't whine about it and blame others . I am working on making it better as time goes by, and very happy for what I have. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
TimG Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 I bet you'd just love to have that "special right" of living on a reserve with substandard housing, water & sewage, education, healthcare, etc.Living on a reserve is a choice. Any native who wants something better can leave and join a community with an economic foundation that makes it possible to pay for housing, water, sewage and education. Quote
Argus Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Well, these things are driven by the damaged parties themselves and by the legal obligations that governments have to them. Some damaged parties will be made whole, or partially whole... others wont. And as the events get further and further into the past its less and less likely that these grievances will be addressed. Are peoples who were enslaved and subjugated in ancient Egypt going to be able to seek redress in todays courts? No... but various aborigional cultures around the world, or victims of slavery etc, that can show that these historical events damaged their situation TODAY are likely to achieve varying degrees of success. EVERYONE can point to how their situation might have been damaged TODAY based on some invasion or injustice in their ancestry. How can any individual native point to the past and actually prove their situation today is the result of that as opposed to them not doing anything to improve themselves? If you're sitting on a reserve drinking away the day because you have nothing else to do and no future, why is that my fault? Don't you have access to the same economy I do? Can't you go out and find a job and work for a living as I did? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 EVERYONE can point to how their situation might have been damaged TODAY based on some invasion or injustice in their ancestry. How many thousands of Canadians can point to the grotesque injustices and abuses they and their parents suffered and the all too often dysfunctional upbringing they either endured and or imparted to their kids as a result? We're talking about whole communities that are basically suffering collective PTSD. How can any individual native point to the past and actually prove their situation today is the result of that as opposed to them not doing anything to improve themselves? You do realize this is about people within living memory right? Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
jacee Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) K this is a bit beside the topic, US info. I had heard of forced sterilization of Indian women in Canada. I thought back in the 30's. Now I'm wondering. In the US it happened in the 1970's. wth? http://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/543.html Edited June 10, 2015 by jacee Quote
jacee Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 They weren't born so it is impossible for any land to be taken from "them". The fallacy that you have bought into is that Canadians living today should be divided into groups based on who their ancestors are. Well we pretty much are: There are people who inherited property and people who didn't. . Quote
GostHacked Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Who says they owned it? Whoever lived there owned it. I know it is a foreign concept to own something without needing a receipt from the government to prove it. What we have here is 'might is right'. The natives weapons were no match for the more technologically superior weapons from the European nations. Both the Brits, French and Spanish fought over the land while fighting against the natives. Quote
DFCaper Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 By ending this apartheid you mean stop living up to our negotiated responsibilities for destroying their livelihoods and robbing them of their land and culture. Right? Should we compensate all people with Acadian bloodlines? Or has the success of the "Cultural Genocide" make this unnecessary? Quote "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it" - Hellen Keller "Success is not measured by the heights one attains, but by the obstacles one overcomes in its attainment" - Booker T. Washington
DFCaper Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 These are changes that cannot be imposed on them, and would not be palatable to them. I think we Canadians should shut up about what we think they 'should' do. We've caused far too much damage that way already. . I swear you want the status quo, as it seems to be what your advocating for? I haven't read any suggestions from you that there will be enough political will to be successful. Just continue as we are today, with us throwing them a few more dollars since we feel guilty... Sad Quote "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it" - Hellen Keller "Success is not measured by the heights one attains, but by the obstacles one overcomes in its attainment" - Booker T. Washington
WestCoastRunner Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 I swear you want the status quo, as it seems to be what your advocating for? I haven't read any suggestions from you that there will be enough political will to be successful. Just continue as we are today, with us throwing them a few more dollars since we feel guilty... Sad It's so hard to rationalize with this. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Keepitsimple Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Whoever lived there owned it. I know it is a foreign concept to own something without needing a receipt from the government to prove it. What we have here is 'might is right'. The natives weapons were no match for the more technologically superior weapons from the European nations. Both the Brits, French and Spanish fought over the land while fighting against the natives. .....and the natives fought huge battles among themselves. Do Canadians know about the Iroquois/Beaver Wars? Not a chance......and for those who think they were all peace-loving natives until the Europeans came, think again. This makes for very interesting reading for those that are unaware of Canada's early history. What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Well, it seems that even back then, the "conquering" Native Nations laid claim to the land. When the French returned in 1601, the St. Lawrence Valley had already been the site of generations of blood-feud-style warfare, as indeed characterized the relations of the Iroquois with virtually all neighboring peoples.[2] When Samuel de Champlain landed at Tadoussac on the St. Lawrence, the Montagnais, Algonquin, and Huron almost immediately recruited him and his small company of French adventurers to assist in attacking their Iroquois enemies upriver. The wars were brutal and are considered one of the bloodiest series of conflicts in the history of North America. As the Iroquois succeeded in the war and enlarged their territory, they realigned the tribal geography of North America, and destroyed several large tribal confederacies—including the Huron, Neutral, Erie, Susquehannock, and Shawnee—and pushed some eastern tribes west of the Mississippi River, or southward into the Carolinas. The Iroquois also controlled the Ohio Valley lands as hunting ground, from about 1670 onward, as far as can be determined from contemporary French (Jesuit) accounts. The Ohio Country and the Lower Peninsula of Michigan were virtually emptied of Native people as refugees fled westward to escape Iroquois warriors. (Much of this region was later repopulated by Native peoples nominally subjected to the Six Nations; see Mingo.) Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_Wars Quote Back to Basics
GostHacked Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Just wondering how more war is an excuse for others waring against each other. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Should we compensate all people with Acadian bloodlines? Or has the success of the "Cultural Genocide" make this unnecessary?They're compensated by bankrupting New Brunswick with duality legislation that's entrenched in the Constitution. Quote
poochy Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 .....and the natives fought huge battles among themselves. Do Canadians know about the Iroquois/Beaver Wars? Not a chance......and for those who think they were all peace-loving natives until the Europeans came, think again. This makes for very interesting reading for those that are unaware of Canada's early history. What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Well, it seems that even back then, the "conquering" Native Nations laid claim to the land. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_Wars We also know that our inuit are not the original inhabitants of the arctic, the Dorset people, who were seemingly there first, were actually 'genocided' by the Greenland inuit, who live there still, no one seems to complain much about that. Quote
dre Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 EVERYONE can point to how their situation might have been damaged TODAY based on some invasion or injustice in their ancestry. How can any individual native point to the past and actually prove their situation today is the result of that as opposed to them not doing anything to improve themselves? If you're sitting on a reserve drinking away the day because you have nothing else to do and no future, why is that my fault? Nobody said it was your fault, but we have all benefited from access to the land and resources that make up Canada, and everything people did back in those days to secure them from the previous owners. We made a deal with them, and we either have to honor it or negotiate a new one. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DFCaper Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 It's so hard to rationalize with this. The crime we discussed against the FN was "cultural genocide". To fix this, I think we should look at protecting the culture as we have for our French culture. To be successful at this, we need to separate the culture's rights from the individual's rights. A large portion of the electorate is already upset about the added costs/burden other regions feel the french culture protection. I imagine it would be far worst if French Canadians were given privilege and rights that go beyond other Canadians based on ethnicity. People get upset about unions and civil servants getting benefits they don't despite there being no reason for these same people to get the union/civil servant jobs. Therefor, I feel the only way forward for FN is to pick one route, special status for the culture or the individuals. After how many hundreds of years do we repeat what we are currently doing before we try to put in a systematic fix. Jacee seems to promote tweaking the current situation. I just don't believe it will result in a real improvement. Just further segregation. Same old same old terrible situation for FN to continue... Quote "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it" - Hellen Keller "Success is not measured by the heights one attains, but by the obstacles one overcomes in its attainment" - Booker T. Washington
TimG Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Nobody said it was your fault, but we have all benefited from access to the land and resources that make up CanadaIncluding all natives. Natives benefit hugely from economic activity generated from non-natives. I also cannot envision any alternate history which would not have resulted in natives ending up as a minority. In fact, if the abuses in the past had not occurred there is a good chance that the general egalitarian principal that underpins all democracies would be used to strip the native minority of any residual rights (just like the British voters stripped the British nobility of their privileges in the 50s and 60s). IOW, the current privileges which people are so quick to defend today are only tolerable because natives have endured so many abuses in the past. Without those abuses there is no moral basis for holding onto the priviledges. Edited June 10, 2015 by TimG Quote
jacee Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) .....and the natives fought huge battles among themselves. Do Canadians know about the Iroquois/Beaver Wars? Not a chance......and for those who think they were all peace-loving natives until the Europeans came, think again. This makes for very interesting reading for those that are unaware of Canada's early history. What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Well, it seems that even back then, the "conquering" Native Nations laid claim to the land. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_Wars The 'Beaver Wars' were fought by the English against the French, and both had native allies."1698: The Iroquois, realising that they are the scapegoat in what was essentially an English inspired war, sue for peace 1701: Grande Paix (Great Peace) Treaty." Because following conflict ... one makes peace treaties ... for peace, land rights, boundaries, etc. And we have those treaties. The Great Peace Treaty of 1701 is still referenced in negotiations today. . Edited June 10, 2015 by jacee Quote
Argus Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 How many thousands of Canadians can point to the grotesque injustices and abuses they and their parents suffered and the all too often dysfunctional upbringing they either endured and or imparted to their kids as a result? We're talking about whole communities that are basically suffering collective PTSD. We weren't specifically talking about residential schools. However, as I've said in that class, only one third of natives went to them, and while they were, by our standards, pretty damned cruel, well, most boarding schools and orphanages were just as cruel. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Whoever lived there owned it. So some small band of natives lived in the woods by a river, and they owned what, everything for a thousand miles around? I don't think so. You don't own land simply because you live near it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 The crime we discussed against the FN was "cultural genocide". To fix this, We can't fix the damage that was done. I think we should look at protecting the culture as we have for our French culture. To be successful at this, we need to separate the culture's rights from the individual's rights. ... Therefor, I feel the only way forward for FN is to pick one route, special status for the culture or the individuals. After how many hundreds of years do we repeat what we are currently doing before we try to put in a systematic fix. Jacee seems to promote tweaking the current situation. I just don't believe it will result in a real improvement. Just further segregation. Same old same old terrible situation for FN to continue... Can you clarify how you think Indigenous Peoples could implement whatever it is you're suggesting? Quote
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