Accountability Now Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 What haven't we? Jacee....I'm done asking you this question as you refuse to answer with just one spot in the treaties where the Crown has broken its end of the treaties. Your constant deflection has been noted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 I agree that a new agreement is needed but it would involve a complete buyout of aboriginal rights thus making all Canadians equal. Thus buyout would be significant but I still don't think natives would go for it despite the fact their current treaties are screwing them over Harper wants that, the BC Treaty process was set up that way, a few First Nations have accepted those terms. But it's not a popular idea. And the government can't impose those terms. It has to be by agreement, ratified by the community. Saying it won't make it so. And with Aboriginal title now a legal fact ... Not very likely in many cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accountability Now Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 And the government can't impose those terms. It has to be by agreement, ratified by the community. . Getting it ratified by the FN community would make it more peaceful but it's not necessary. New laws can be passed that would change everything if the Canadian people went that way. And with Aboriginal title now a legal fact ... Not very likely in many cases. There aren't many cases where aboriginal title is possible as most areas have been ceded by treaty. That's what makes this tough....it's those vast areas of ceded land that could benefit from a new deal but the incensed lands like it just the way it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Je suis Omar Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 It's pretty silly to suggest that governments that engaged in cultural genocide for numerous generations should be trusted in any dealings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 It's pretty silly to suggest that governments that engaged in cultural genocide for numerous generations should be trusted in any dealings. Past governments did engaged in genocide, that is true. Like it or not, if you actually want to have dealings (and not your type of ravings) we have to do it with...current governments. Or we could just rave on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) There should be one citizenship for all. No special privileges for people just because their ancestors have been in Canada longer than mine. Scrap the Indian act, get rid of reserves and do not bestow nor deny anyone based on their ethnicity.But you see Argus ... that's forced assimilation ... and that's illegal.It's not even on the table for discussion. Except of course that the Indian Residential Schools Settlements and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission are addressing our last attempt at forced assimilation ... genocide. Not going down that road again. Got it?! sheesh! . Edited June 11, 2015 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Getting it ratified by the FN community would make it more peaceful but it's not necessary.Yes it is. New laws can be passed that would change everything if the Canadian people went that way.No they can'tThere aren't many cases where aboriginal title is possible as most areas have been ceded by treaty.Most of BC.Anywhere else our governments didn't fulfill the terms of the treaties or land surrenders - ie, land claims. If it wasn't ceded properly, it wasn't ceded. And sometimes that was because it wasn't ratified by the community. Thus, unceded land. . .That's what makes this tough....it's those vast areas of ceded land that could benefit from a new deal but the incensed lands like it just the way it is? Edited June 11, 2015 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accountability Now Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Yes it is. No they can't Those are some really strong and well thought out arguments jacee. I can see you put a lot of thought into it. Of course the simple fact is that the constitution is the supreme law in our country and can be changed with amendments. For that matter, the entire constitution could be rewritten if the country wanted it to. Having said that the desire and ability to amend the constitution is not easy and certainly would not be easy in the case of aboriginal affairs. However, if the natives become even more contentious then they are now then it may very well be a path that Canadians chose to exercise. Rest assured, the constitution does have the ability to change. Anywhere else our governments didn't fulfill the terms Again....I've asked you numerous times to show where the government has not fulfilled the terms of the treaties and not once have you substantiated this opinion of yours. As such I will mark this as another unsubstantiated opinion. ? @ See...I can place random characters here too. Of course, I choose to assemble the characters into words and words into sentences in order to form a point. It helps when debating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 My Irish ancestors were treated like shit in this country way back when. Where is my money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 So I see the pope kind of gave harper the quick brush off. And that is because the pope or the Vatican want nothing to do with this T&R thingy. We will see if the pope shows up in 2017. IMO That is when harper wants the Vatican to say something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Yes there is... we made a deal, and its moral to honor your commitments. If we abolished the treaties and reserves the natives would, by next generation, be infinitely better off than they are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Well, ok but how ? Most people feel some empathy for the state of the conquered people of Canada. I can see that you don't feel that way, or at least it seems to me that you don't, but you're basically checking out of the discussion with a stance like that. There are no conquered people in Canada You're a few generations late for that one. The natives would be way better off joining society and dumping he reserves and treaties. We could give them a one-time payment, or continue their funding in the cities but gradually remove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 If we abolished the treaties and reserves the natives would, by next generation, be infinitely better off than they are now. That's the thing. The people hurt most by the status quo are Aboriginals who rot on isolated northern reserves with nothing to do but sniff gas and hang themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 The natives refusal to do anything that would help, their own people is a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 The natives refusal to do anything that would help, their own people is a problem. The flaw in expecting otherwise is that those in charge on reserves have no particular incentive to change anything. They're doing great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 There are no conquered people in Canada You're a few generations late for that one. The natives would be way better off joining society and dumping he reserves and treaties. We could give them a one-time payment, or continue their funding in the cities but gradually remove it. Or they could keep the funding and the reserves, and focus on rooting out corruption, and on making good investments. One of the local bands where I live has done just that... they hired an outside firm to manage the bands finances and they allowed walmart, superstore, shell, canadian tire, TD, and dozens of other businesses to set up shop on their land. They certainly arent without social problems but for the most part the reserve looks just like any other middle class neighborhood... nice modern homes, etc. And the businesses on the reserve agree to hire a certain ammount of first nations. Thats probably the smartest approach for them to take. Taking any kind of one-time lump sum payment without first dealing with corrupt chiefs and band councils would probably be a mistake. I think any real financial advisor to the bands would instead push to keep their funding indefinately, and make smart investments with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) If we abolished the treaties and reserves the natives would, by next generation, be infinitely better off than they are now. Thats just a wild guess. And abolishing the treaties would be really stupid on our part. Those treaties form the legal basis for our existance in much of the country and keep most of the country out of court cases involving land claims. Since we got a WAY better deal in treaty negotiations than they did, abolishing them would not be too bright. We would basically be back to square one, with first nations having potential legal claims against the entire country. Anyways... sure even YOU must know thats just a wet dream right? Edited June 11, 2015 by dre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 And abolishing the treaties would be really stupid on our part. Those treaties form the legal basis for our existance in much of the country and keep most of the country out of court cases involving land claims. If you think that Canada would just cease to exist you've bought into a lie. The RP1763 gave all the land to the Crown. The treaties just negotiated for their use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 If you think that Canada would just cease to exist you've bought into a lie. The RP1763 gave all the land to the Crown. The treaties just negotiated for their use. I never said Canada would cease to exist. What I said is the treaties were a great deal for us, and they keep most of the country out of land claims cases so it would be stupid to get rid of them. Like I said, we would be back to square one. Secondly... The RP did declare King George the sovereign of North America that is true, but it also recognized aboritional title (ownership) explicity states that aborigionals have title (ownership) over all lands not ceded by treaties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 I never said Canada would cease to exist. What I said is the treaties were a great deal for us, and they keep most of the country out of land claims cases so it would be stupid to get rid of them. Like I said, we would be back to square one. Secondly... The RP did declare King George the sovereign of North America that is true, but it also recognized aboritional title (ownership) explicity states that aborigionals have title (ownership) over all lands not ceded by treaties. Aboriginal people were placed under the crown in that document. Any of it could be abolished and Canada would still exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Aboriginal people were placed under the crown in that document. Any of it could be abolished and Canada would still exist. And then, as dre has pointed out, we would spend years in the courts. Or at least when we could get court time around another Harper (C 51) omnibus being smacked down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 And then, as dre has pointed out, we would spend years in the courts. Or at least when we could get court time around another Harper (C 51) omnibus being smacked down. No, that's not true. Anything can be rendered legal if the political will exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 No, that's not true. Anything can be rendered legal if the political will exists. Like genocide was made 'legal' in Canada. That won't be happening again. It is just as illegal to legislate people out of existence as it is to murder them. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Like genocide was made 'legal' in Canada. That won't be happening again. It is just as illegal to legislate people out of existence as it is to murder them. . Yeah, no ones talking about either of those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Or they could keep the funding and the reserves, and focus on rooting out corruption, and on making good investments.You cannot fund reserves and root out corruption because free money is the cause of corruption. Reserves need to support themselves by taxing their residents and this would give residents and incentive to root out corruption. If funding is required it could go to individual natives who would have pay taxes to the reserve. Edited June 11, 2015 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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