Snowden's actions inevitable, perhaps even necessary.

[Icebound]

That's all well and good, but it was the same Senate (and House) that authored 9/11 committee reports demanding that something be done to collect intelligence and "connect the dots" to help prevent future terrorist attacks. They promptly approved billions more for the NSA budget.

Yeah, except that a decade on, they find the tools are being used illegally, and are not all that useful for connecting the dots anyway.

Not to mention being lied to about it, as well.

It will be interesting to see if Rand Paul's performance this week resonates with the American electorate. On this issue, he is sounding a lot like the Obama of 2008.

[bush_cheney2004]

It will be interesting to see if Rand Paul's performance this week resonates with the American electorate. On this issue, he is sounding a lot like the Obama of 2008.

And we all know what became of Candidate Obama after January 2009 (more drone attacks, more spying, more Gitmo, more, more, more).

Rand Paul will crash and burn just like his father. He is not a viable candidate for the general election.

[On Guard for Thee]

And we all know what became of Candidate Obama after January 2009 (more drone attacks, more spying, more Gitmo, more, more, more).

Rand Paul will crash and burn just like his father. He is not a viable candidate for the general election.

More Gitmo... No, less actually. Although I could be critical of him not shutting it down as soon as he wanted to, but then he had a whacky, GOP dominated congress to deal with, didn't he...

[Rue]

Well for those of you preoccupied with Buch Chaney's country and not your own, did you notice that there was unanimity with bi patisan support for a new law to continue where the NSA left off? Did those of you worshipping Rand Paul even listen to what was said?

Nothing has changed.

Some of you live in a fantasy world where you think you can avoid surveillance.Uh hello,put down the cell phone, the credit cards, pull your money out of the bank and go live in the bush and withdraw because if you ain't willing to do that, its time you wake up and realize everytime you buy anything you are tagged and tracked not for anything evil but for marketing purposes.All you are is a source of profit and revenue for someone and as such, you are marked, tagged and tracked and you buy into it as part of being a consumer in this material world.

The security issue is the tip of the iceberg and Snowden never addressed the actual issue. He cherry picked a tiny fraction of it for partisan reasons of self entitlement. You chip card baby, it makes you a marked fat hen for plucking.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Rue

[Big Guy]

I doubt if Snowden did what he did for personal benefit. I am sure that he knew that his career was done and if he went that route - but he did anyway. He may have done it as he claims because of the amount of information that he had about what was being withheld from the people by governments or for other reasons.

I am surprised that Time magazine has not selected him as "Man of the Year" since his actions have affected every aspect of American policy - both foreign and domestic.

Everything that Snowden has revealed is the truth - facts that have been verified. I find it telling that no one seems outraged when our leaders lie, misspeak and steal from us but when someone discloses "facts" then the screaming begins.

I think it is still too early to label him a traitor or patriot. Let history judge.

[Je suis Omar]

I doubt if Snowden did what he did for personal benefit. I am sure that he knew that his career was done ... .

Everything that Snowden has revealed is the truth - facts that have been verified. I find it telling that no one seems outraged when our leaders lie, misspeak and steal from us but when someone discloses "facts" then the screaming begins.

I think it is still too early to label him a traitor or patriot. Let history judge.

Aren't you being a bit equivocal about Snowden's motives, BG? Given the power, the reach, the propaganda that the USA has, there was no upside for Edward except the personal satisfaction of knowing he has taken enormous risks to do what is right. He has left behind all he knew.

Consider the vast number of cowards that exist in the various levels of USA government, the ones that lie, murder, rape, steal, kill children, ... .

The truly brave from the "land of the brave" are but a tiny majority. Compare these brave souls to the rest who are woefully ignorant, or craven cowards hiding behind the strongest neighbourhood thug.

All the sources that reveal that the USA has been, since before its founding, nothing but a band of war criminals and terrorists, are also facts. There's been an awful lot of whining and screaming but yet you've maintained a stolid silence. Why?

"Let history judge"! That is really funny. There has never been any real history of the USA written. You plump for letting propaganda judge.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[bush_cheney2004]

Don't worry...we'll save some credit for all those Canadian war criminals too.

Don't want to hog all the glory !

[Icebound]

Some of you live in a fantasy world where you think you can avoid surveillance.Uh hello,put down the cell phone, the credit cards, pull your money out of the bank and go live in the bush and withdraw because if you ain't willing to do that, its time you wake up and realize everytime you buy anything you are tagged and tracked not for anything evil but for marketing purposes.

Exactly: ... if our governments do nothing else....the one thing they are supposed to do is "protect" us. And that includes protection from the misuse of personal information. they should be mandating much tighter limits on how personal information is held and used by corporations, and NOT be part of the misuse problem.

Even so, as has been repeatedly said: the difference between Walmart misusing my information and Governments doing it, is that Walmart can't put me in jail.

They are also supposed to "protect" us from future governments that might not be quite as benevolent as our present company. That's what constitutions are for.

Forgive a government for eroding democracy and for lying about it... at your peril.

[bush_cheney2004]

....They are also supposed to "protect" us from future governments that might not be quite as benevolent as our present company. That's what constitutions are for.

Forgive a government for eroding democracy and for lying about it... at your peril.

Nope...not even close. Constitutions are frameworks that can prove to be quite flexible under the duress of competing public and private interests wherein one side can and will lose. Happens all the time.

The NSA will continue to do what it has been commissioned to do, and even if they said otherwise, why would anyone believe it ?

[On Guard for Thee]

Exactly: ... if our governments do nothing else....the one thing they are supposed to do is "protect" us. And that includes protection from the misuse of personal information. they should be mandating much tighter limits on how personal information is held and used by corporations, and NOT be part of the misuse problem.

Even so, as has been repeatedly said: the difference between Walmart misusing my information and Governments doing it, is that Walmart can't put me in jail.

They are also supposed to "protect" us from future governments that might not be quite as benevolent as our present company. That's what constitutions are for.

Forgive a government for eroding democracy and for lying about it... at your peril.

Maybe Wal Mart cant put you in jail, but according to the Republican conspiracy theories, the government, with its Jade Helm program, may put you in jail...in a closed Wal Mart in Texas.

[BubberMiley]

Exactly. Apparently they draw the line of their beloved big government at peace and security. But intruding on your domestic life in other ways, and confiscating more and more of your income isn't an infringement at all. Go figure.

I like big government. I said Snowden is a hero to those who are honest in their opposition to it, not to me. Try to follow things without jumping to conclusions. It makes you look stupid.

[Shady]

I like big government.

I feel sorry for people like you.

[GostHacked]

Very productive thread so far. Well in some cases. But I guess it is safe to say that the bigger point is that the actions Snowden took would have been eventually done by someone. The NSA and other intelligence agencies would have managed to get away with it all. And without anyone really knowing about it. That seems kind of opposite to a government that wants to declare itself open and honest (no matter blue or red), pretending to be democratic and interested in protecting your so called freedom and rights.

Trust me I am not against these people doing their jobs, but they need to think about this more as we seem to hear more about widespread abuse of it compared to actual terrorist plots being foiled. And the current laws seem to do just fine, and in a sense can be dialed back.

So now you have Snowden joining the likes (or ilk in some cases) of Julian Assange, also being labeled as a traitor, for revealing some of the horrors that took place in Afghanistan and Iraq. Painting a very different picture of what we saw in the main stream media. Wikileaks had some damning evidence on the power structure and the level of corruption that is apparently going on behind the scenes, but we are told to ignore them. Whatever.

Now the questions are, who is next, where would that person be from and what would be exposed? It's going to happen and even more people will be a tad upset about it. I guess our stupidity and ignorance are proving to be the biggest assets for those nasty terrorists.

[eyeball]

Exactly. Apparently they draw the line of their beloved big government at peace and security.

The line where your love of big government apparently starts. Go figure.

[Hudson Jones]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3093604/How-Edward-Snowden-leaks-caused-boom-secret-messaging-apps-used-terrorists.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/06/cia-s-ex-no-2-says-isis-learned-from-snowden.html

So nothing.

Snowden did not reveal any specific secrets that could hurt the U.S. He just said that the U.S. government is spying on everyone, and it has been lying to everyone by saying otherwise.

People like you, unfortunately, are nothing more than cheerleaders and enablers of fascism. On the other hand, Snowden is a hero.

[Rue]

Once again Hudson you choose to name call,"People lik you are nothing more than...enablers of facism."

You can't go one post without the personal attacks-this coming from someone who has complained to the moderator when the very same references are made about you.

You continue to demonstrate an attempt to lower the discussion on the board to personal name calling.

Now let's get to your statement, sweeping as usual with no basis, that Snowden did not reveal specific secrets that could hurt the US.Iti s unrefencedopinion statements like that which expose you and your agenda.

It is public domain admitted to no less by Snowden himself, that he revealed information that exposed the names of hundreds of agents endangering their lives. Why Hudson Jones would deny that is anyone's guess when even Snowden admitted he knew that he would be exposing lives to danger but did it anyways thinking the ends justified the potential risks to their lives.

In Hudson Jones' world we just pretend what he did, did not happen and spin it away with a quick subjective pronouncement followed by personal insult.

This is precisely why Hudson Jones lost any semblance of credibility on this board.

The actual information exposed and how it selectively only compromised US operations not Chinese,Russian,North Korean, Iranian, operations, is public domain. The necessary edge it then gave to these countries or terrorist organizations to attack, kill and gain knowledge to facilitate both, is public domain.

To deny the info Snowden leaked was selective, deliberately selective and compromised lives and enables and empowers terrorists and fascist regimes speaks for itself. There is Hudson Jones calling Argus a fascist because he is not anti US?

There we go. Its all so simple.ISIL, Al Quaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Taliban, Russia, China, North Korea good, US, fascist. Enable anyone who is an enemy of the US its all good.

Its a tiresome refrain and to apologize for what Snowden did and try spin it as harmless speaks for itself in absurdity, political bias to the point of inanity not to mention redundant.

Yah yah, Uncle Sam, poo poo head.

[Big Guy]

I find it ironic that we praise those who lie and misspeak to us as our leaders "for our own good" and condemn those who reveal the truth to us.

BTW Is it moral to break the law to expose breaking of the law?

[GostHacked]

I find it ironic that we praise those who lie and misspeak to us as our leaders "for our own good" and condemn those who reveal the truth to us.

BTW Is it moral to break the law to expose breaking of the law?

Is it justifiable to kill innocents just to get one terrorist via drone strike? I believe Snowden did the right thing.