bush_cheney2004 Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 A true hero to those who are honest in their opposition to big government. ...but no opposition to big government social programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 ...but no opposition to big government social programs. Exactly. Apparently they draw the line of their beloved big government at peace and security. But intruding on your domestic life in other ways, and confiscating more and more of your income isn't an infringement at all. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 I think anybody who wishes to worship Snowdens coward ass should continue to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 (edited) The attempt to draw Bush into personal attacks and insults are not working.Can we get back to the topic.This is about Snowden not Bush. The last time I looked Bush has not disclosed any information that has put into peril the lives of thousands of intelligence agents and compromised national security. The actions of Snowden by only exposing certain alleged intelligence provided an imbalance that will enable countries like China and Russia to engage in the very behaviour Snowden has condemned the US for. Therein lies the irony and of course the inability for certain forum members to undersand that and try use it to bait other members with insults speaks for itself. Had Snowden truly wanted to expose things in an ethical way he would not have cherry picked which countries to expose. By so doing he has aided terrorism and totalitarianism in the name of supposedly exposing it. Edited May 30, 2015 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 ...Had Snowden truly wanted to expose things in an ethical way he would not have cherry picked which countries to expose. By so doing he has aided terrorism and totalitarianism in the name of supposedly exposing it. Agreed....if Snowden actually had the ideals and courage of say a Daniel Ellsberg (who also praises Snowden), he would have stayed for his day in court. Instead, the traitor-coward headed off to Putin's Russia with his laptop(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 Ellsberg also points out Snowden would not get a fair trial in the US. I guess it takes courage to recognize courage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 Cowards don't want to face their day in court. Better to live "free" in Putin's Russia...maybe go to a Pussy Riot concert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 Who would want to face a day in a kangaroo court when the outcome is predetermined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 (edited) Snowden has openly admitted to breaking US security laws. He has never denied breaking laws. His argument is he feels he deliberately had to break the law for a greater or higher moral imperative. So suggesting there would be a kangaroo court misses the point.If you do not agree with the law you have 2 choices-one is to deliberately break it and suffer the consequences if you feel the greater moral imperative, and you go to jail to prove your point as King, Ghandi, Dr. Kevorkian, and many pacifists against warslike Muhammed Ali did so you can retain a moral ground from which to make your continued arguments, or you break the law and run as a fugitivel like Snowden did. A moral man would not have run but stayed, gone to jail and ontinued to argue the morality of his actions. We have a brave man called Latimer here in Canada who did just that. He stayed in jail and refused to say what he did was wrong to procure an early release from the mercy killing of his daughter. The fact Snowden did not stand his ground to preserve his moral ground and then compounded his error by only selecting certain countries to compromise, enabled the very immorality he protested to flourish in a power vacuum caused by his very actions. His sense self, his narcissistic personality and feeling of self entitlement vitiated any moral stance he claimed. He enabled the very bad things he protested by cherry picking only certain things for exposure and by runnning he then prevented the moral argument from being made. He's no hero. He acted as a spoiled brat seeking attention. He engaged in the enjoyment of the privilege of his position and only turned on it when it no longer suited him. Snowden has a flawed personality caused by a narcissistic complex.He was no compelled by a sense of duty to his fellow humankind, he was fueled by a need to bring attention to himself to fuel his ego and lack of self esteem. Do not represent him as a Kevorkian Ghandi or King or Ali or Latimer. He has never shown their humility and willingness to challenge the law through through a balanced well thought out challenge, Let's put it as simple as possible, if two men are pointing guns at one another threatening to kill each other, it is not moral to pull the gun from only one man's hands. The decision to only sabotage one gun achieves no morality. The true act of morality necessarily requires neutrality in the position between the two opposing views. That is why I criticize him. The US is but one of hundreds of countries engaged in acts of immorality. Selecting only the US out is a crock. Edited May 30, 2015 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 Snowden has openly admitted to breaking deliberately US security laws. He has never denied breaking laws. His argument is he feels he deliberately had to break the law for a greater or higher moral imperative. So to call that a kangaroo court misses the point.If you do not agree with the law you have 2 choices-one is to deliberately break it and suffer the consequences if you feel the greater moral imperative, and you go to jail to prove your point as King, Ghandi, Dr. Kevorkian, and many pacifists against the war did like Muhammed Ali, or you break the law and run as a fugitivel like Snowden. Very well stated....but obviously lost on the Snowden worshippers. Snowden is a coward and a traitor....rot in Putin's Russia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 I guess most of us would rather rot in Russia than be put to death in the US. Now lets have another vodka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Je suis Omar Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Very well stated....but obviously lost on the Snowden worshippers. Snowden is a coward and a traitor....rot in Putin's Russia. Snowden is a traitor because he has exposed that the USA is a lawless nation, a terrorist nation, a brutal nation. He's a traitor because he has helped pull back the curtain of propaganda to shine a light on what is a festering cesspool of amoral behavior. He's a traitor because he's has shown that the USA is not truth and justice, but lies and massive injustice. It's like murderous, thieving gangsters calling an undercover policeman a rat, a snitch, yes, a traitor. Oh, the disconnect from morality! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Je suis Omar Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Very well stated....but obviously lost on the Snowden worshippers. Snowden is a coward and a traitor....rot in Putin's Russia. "Very well stated"; more hilarity from someone who can't ever muster an original thought, who can't post more than a one line meme. Snowden is a gentleman who has exposed the depravity of the USA, the rampant gangsterism, the inherent evil, the perfidious nature of what is supposed to be a shining city upon a hill. Snowden's incredible courage in illustrating that the shining city is a tawdry wasteland of amorality. Snowden's courage stands tall and it is the exact opposite of every USA administration that has used its massive power against the defenceless poor of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Snowden is a traitor because he has exposed that the USA is a lawless nation, a terrorist nation, a brutal nation. He's a traitor because he has helped pull back the curtain of propaganda to shine a light on what is a festering cesspool of amoral behavior. He's a traitor because he's has shown that the USA is not truth and justice, but lies and massive injustice. It's like murderous, thieving gangsters calling an undercover policeman a rat, a snitch, yes, a traitor. You write like you overdosed on bad 1950s Communist propaganda. And are about as convincing. Edited May 31, 2015 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Very well stated....but obviously lost on the Snowden worshippers. Snowden is a coward and a traitor....rot in Putin's Russia.What?! Can't handle anyone pointing out the truth!?He's a hero to many. Just not to those who like to hide dirty secrets. . Edited May 31, 2015 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Je suis Omar Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 You write like you overdosed on bad 1950s Communist propaganda.And are about as convincing. Those are simple minded, tired old memes from another era, Argus. It'd be nice to see something more than memes in one of your posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 The one tactic we see again and again from NSA supporters, be they the US government itself or the so-called "conservatives" here at the forum, is to try to shift the focus from the NSA to Snowden himself. If I just concede that Snowden is no Gandhi, can we get to the part where we actually discuss the NSA programs? -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 What?! Can't handle anyone pointing out the truth!? He's a hero to many. Just not to those who like to hide dirty secrets. The "truth" is revealed in many ways....doesn't require a coward and traitor stealing classified information and slinking off to Putin's Russia. In the old days, he could have slinked off to Trudeau's Canada !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 The one tactic we see again and again from NSA supporters, be they the US government itself or the so-called "conservatives" here at the forum, is to try to shift the focus from the NSA to Snowden himself. If I just concede that Snowden is no Gandhi, can we get to the part where we actually discuss the NSA programs? Wow...what a major concession. How dare somebody strip Snowden of his Nobel Peace Prize and Ghandi wannabe award. The NSA is/was doing exactly what it is directed to do. Somebody authorized the billions of dollars to build the new Utah data center, and they aim to fill it. The NSA also gets by with a little help from its friends....like those in Canada....who gobble up the intel in return. Bad NSA...bad boy ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 If I just concede that Snowden is no Gandhi, can we get to the part where we actually discuss the NSA programs? Do you know of an NSA program which violates people's privacy anywhere near as much as google or their optimum points card? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Lol Argus. Give them some time on that. This again is the sheer irony of this next generation.They volunteer to be tracked like sheep with their credit cards and cell phones and whine about the NSA. Zip over their heads. They haven't a clue what their own friggin lifestyle welcomes. As for the America is demon comments I have to ask you Je Suis Omar, where do you live? When you make rhetorical comments like that about the US you expose yourself to the obvious question as to how you pose as you do? What would you have people believe you live in the republic of ISIL? Or are you saying you live in the wonderful world of Syria, Iran or Russia? Say now you pose as being a warrior but the truck you have your make believe gun on is a Ford. Salaam Aleikum my suburban warrior. Edited May 31, 2015 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 The one tactic we see again and again from NSA supporters, be they the US government itself or the so-called "conservatives" here at the forum, is to try to shift the focus from the NSA to Snowden himself. If I just concede that Snowden is no Gandhi, can we get to the part where we actually discuss the NSA programs? -k This is a point that is missed by some. We know Snowden broke laws to show that what the NSA was doing was illegal, aka breaking laws via their surveillance programs. But nah, screw it, let's hate on Russia and Snowden some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebound Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I've been sitting here for the last hour or so, watching on C-SPAN... the Senate debating NSA's data collection programs pending tonight's Patriot Act deadline. Whether Snowden is a hero or not... it seem pretty apparent that a large number of Senators... led by Rand Paul... have been unhappy with the Government's intelligence services' illegal bulk-data collection (and their lies about the same).... for a long time. But over the years, their efforts to have the issue addressed, came to nothing... until Snowden blew the lid off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I've been sitting here for the last hour or so, watching on C-SPAN... the Senate debating NSA's data collection programs pending tonight's Patriot Act deadline. That's all well and good, but it was the same Senate (and House) that authored 9/11 committee reports demanding that something be done to collect intelligence and "connect the dots" to help prevent future terrorist attacks. They promptly approved billions more for the NSA budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebound Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Do you know of an NSA program which violates people's privacy anywhere near as much as google or their optimum points card? EXACTLY! ! ! These are exactly the sort of privacy invasions that governments should be protecting its citizens from, not adding to them. That.... and bank fraud... and... computer security.... and the hundreds of other scams that plague MOST of the American and Canadian people every day.... But no, on the issues that cost us the most money and effort every day, they leave us to our own devices... but billions are spent on illegal systems of dubious worth to save us from a terror which might be more spectacular, but way, way, less probable for the average citizen.. Edited June 1, 2015 by Icebound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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