Bonam Posted March 11, 2015 Report Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Wow, what a terribly cruel argument. Survival of the fittest it would seem. Can't argue your logic and I can't say I disagree with your points but the one thing I do have an issue with is the schools in lower income area's are suffering badly and I wonder how many good producers have been tossed aside or overlooked. How much more was spent on keeping these kids in those areas that end up in jail on their incarceration than was spent on their education. It is sad that criminals get more of the money than the students. I think programs for learners with above-average abilities should be on the lookout for candidates in all areas, including poor ones. Students that show exceptional potential should be able to develop it to its fullest regardless of what area they are from. As for spending more money on criminals than on students... I don't have the numbers handy but I'm pretty sure education spending dwarfs police/justice spending. Edited March 11, 2015 by Bonam Quote
cybercoma Posted March 11, 2015 Report Posted March 11, 2015 I think programs for learners with above-average abilities should be on the lookout for candidates in all areas, including poor ones. Students that show exceptional potential should be able to develop it to its fullest regardless of what area they are from. As for spending more money on criminals than on students... I don't have the numbers handy but I'm pretty sure education spending dwarfs police/justice spending. Those who start behind the 8-ball remain there and fall further behind as they grow up. Cultivating their skills needs to begin from day 1. All children should have access to equal quality education, regardless of their family's wealth or background. It's inhumane to say, "Well, your parents are losers so too bad. That's the hand you were dealt." Quote
Bonam Posted March 11, 2015 Report Posted March 11, 2015 Those who start behind the 8-ball remain there and fall further behind as they grow up. Cultivating their skills needs to begin from day 1. All children should have access to equal quality education, regardless of their family's wealth or background. It's inhumane to say, "Well, your parents are losers so too bad. That's the hand you were dealt." Ok so ban private schools, ban school fundraisers, fire any teacher that is any better or worse in any way than the average, jail parents that help their kids with schoolwork, ban private tutors, etc etc. Nothing is ever gonna be perfectly equal, that's just life. Quote
cybercoma Posted March 11, 2015 Report Posted March 11, 2015 Ok so ban private schools, ban school fundraisers, fire any teacher that is any better or worse in any way than the average, jail parents that help their kids with schoolwork, ban private tutors, etc etc. Nothing is ever gonna be perfectly equal, that's just life.You feel better now after that outburst of strawmen and intellectual diarrhea? Quote
cybercoma Posted March 11, 2015 Report Posted March 11, 2015 Feel free to read through the program assessment summary yourself. http://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/PISA-2012-results-US.pdf Quote
Ash74 Posted March 11, 2015 Report Posted March 11, 2015 You feel better now after that outburst of strawmen and intellectual diarrhea? He does have a point. Some parents hire tutors and help with homework while others do not. How do you equal that out? Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
cybercoma Posted March 11, 2015 Report Posted March 11, 2015 He does have a point. Some parents hire tutors and help with homework while others do not. How do you equal that out?You don't. That's not the point. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 There's a reason the US continues to be the leader in technological, scientific, and medical innovation. By far the #1 reason for that is because the US has a far higher population compared to all other economically advanced countries in the world. 320 million vs the next closest being Japan at 126 mil, then Germany at 81 mil, then UK and France around 65 mil. It's the same reason the US cleans up at the Olympics. I would argue that an education system that produces the most "top performing students" even while also resulting in many of the "poorest performing students" is a whole lot more beneficial to the nation and to humankind than one that consistently produces a lot of average students and not too many on the extremes. Why? Because the top performers are the ones that innovate, create wealth through visionary new ideas, develop revolutionary new technologies, discover new scientific principles, etc. Socially, it might feel nice if you spend more on poor performers to help them catch up to the rest of the pack. But economically and in terms of overall progress, spending more on the highest performers to fully unlock their potential brings a greater benefit. You're probably right in the that supporting top performers brings more revolutionary innovations etc. However, it just doesn't "feel nice" to spend more on poor performers. The entire society would benefit. Better education will, in general, lead to decreasing crime, increased health (thus less healthcare costs), and in general less overall poverty and the vast number of negative economic and social problems that comes with poverty. It's also pretty obvious that in US schools (from kindergarten through university) compared to Canada, student's access to the best education has less to do with academic merit and ability and more to do with your wealth (and in many cases, your athletic ability...which is a joke). Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
TimG Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 By far the #1 reason for that is because the US has a far higher population compared to all other economically advanced countries in the world. 320 million vs the next closest being Japan at 126 mil, then Germany at 81 mil, then UK and France around 65 mil. It's the same reason the US cleans up at the Olympics.If that was the case then the EU should collectively surpass the US on all measures. I don't believe that is the case. When is the last game changing technology that came out of Europe? Nokia? Quote
jbg Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 I've always been a big fan of Noam Chomsky and his intelligence. Take a look at this interview with Ezra Levant. Chomsky wins hands down. http://www.therebel.media/ezra_levant_clashes_with_noam_chomsky_on_freedom_of_speech_in_america Chomsky did better than I expected him to. He's certainly no moron. But war crimes? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 If that was the case then the EU should collectively surpass the US on all measures. I don't believe that is the case. When is the last game changing technology that came out of Europe? Nokia? No, the gas chamber and the Einsatzgruppen. And Gulags. And in more recent times French CarBeQues. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
eyeball Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 Chomsky did better than I expected him to. He's certainly no moron. But war crimes?Yes, probably the crime of the century as he very aptly put it. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 Well, the century is young...I'm sure we can do better long after Chomsky is dead. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 Careful what you wish for but yeah, we're probably just getting warmed up. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
GostHacked Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Ezra loves to tow that far left rhetoric, and Noam was not taking the bait. Which is part of the problem with far left and far right 'ideologies'. Partisan and divisive. Edited March 12, 2015 by GostHacked Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) I watched about half of the 3-part interview and didn't think Chomsky did that of a good job defending his views vs Levant, even though I generally like Chomksy. Some of his arguments certainly have holes in them. I mean, Chomsky says that occurrences of left wingers "limiting free speech on campuses is a rare occurrence", but that's just not true, it happens all the time at many universities. Edited March 12, 2015 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Moonlight Graham Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Ezra loves to tow that far left rhetoric, and Noam was not taking the bait. Which is part of the problem with far left and far right 'ideologies'. Partisan and divisive. Ya I always find it hilarious when right-wingers try to discredit a leftwinger or leftwing idea by calling it/them "far left". There's hardy any far left supporters in Canada or the US. There's a small subset of far-right supporters in Canada or the US, but they're mostly in the US in neo-nazi camp or religious fundamentalist camp. If you want to see far-left or far-right supporters in the West, you have to looks towards Europe. Still quite a few fascists and Marxist-Leninists left over in that part of the world. If anyone doesn't believe me, go on any international politics message board. I find the spectrum of political thought among Canadians particularly small and unvaried. Edited March 12, 2015 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Je suis Omar Posted May 16, 2015 Report Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) There's a reason the US continues to be the leader in technological, scientific, and medical innovation. Of course there is. Over two centuries the USA has stolen massive amounts of the riches of other nations, mostly the poorest ones.It also steals the best and the brightest from other nations. Medicine Marginal notes Why America steals doctors from poorer countries Jonathan Wolff ... For decades about 25% of doctors practising in the US received their training elsewhere. This now amounts to close to 200,000 doctors educated abroad. Around 5,000 were trained in sub-Saharan Africa; predominantly Ghana, Nigeria and South Africa, but also elsewhere. In 2002, there were 47 Liberian-trained doctors working in the US, and just 72 working in Liberia. And even when a doctor is recruited from Canada, Canada then looks to South Africa, and South Africa to wherever it can. The poorest will always lose out. In most countries, especially in the developing world, doctors are trained at public expense. If a doctor from Ghana is recruited to the US, not only does Ghana lose its doctor, it loses the money paid for the training. It may be that the doctor is likely to send a portion of earnings back home (known in the development business as "remittances"). But this is scant compensation. In sum, the US is receiving a massive subsidy from the developing world in training its medical staff. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/apr/04/america-steals-doctors-from-developing-countries Edited May 16, 2015 by Je suis Omar Quote
ReeferMadness Posted July 21, 2015 Report Posted July 21, 2015 This is the issue in the US. They do spend more per student than most of the OECD. The problem is the inequality in education in the US. It's perhaps the worst in the OECD. This results in the US having some incredibly poor scores in reading, maths, and science compared to the amount of money they spend. They end up with simultaneously top performing students as well as some of the poorest performing students. So Shady is absolutely right. The US does spend a lot more on education, but they end up with a worse performing population because the money isn't equitably distributed. Just like health care in the US. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted July 21, 2015 Report Posted July 21, 2015 Ya I always find it hilarious when right-wingers try to discredit a leftwinger or leftwing idea by calling it/them "far left". There's hardy any far left supporters in Canada or the US. There's a small subset of far-right supporters in Canada or the US, but they're mostly in the US in neo-nazi camp or religious fundamentalist camp. If you want to see far-left or far-right supporters in the West, you have to looks towards Europe. Still quite a few fascists and Marxist-Leninists left over in that part of the world. If anyone doesn't believe me, go on any international politics message board. I find the spectrum of political thought among Canadians particularly small and unvaried. True dat. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted July 21, 2015 Report Posted July 21, 2015 Back to the OP, Chomsky is the conscience of the USA. Everyone with a smidgeon of curiosity, intelligence and knowledge can see he is absolutely right in his analysis of how the country is abused its gargantuan military to impose terms on less powerful countries, all the while, mouthing platitudes of democracy, freedom and human rights. The USA is certainly by no means alone in this behavior; but it is by far the worst culprit in the post WWII world. The American contribution to the world of moral outlook is a lack of regard for social justice. It's both a result and a cause of their lack of investment in the two great social equalizers, public health care and public education. So, American society regards public conscience as a quaint notion and dismiss it, much as they mostly dismiss Chomsky. Canada is conflicted, being influenced by America, Europe and its own traditions. In the post-Regan era, American influence has won out, birthing Harperism and the accompanying destructive forces that will take decades to unwind. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 21, 2015 Report Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) ..... The USA is certainly by no means alone in this behavior; but it is by far the worst culprit in the post WWII world. "Post WWII" is always the favorite qualifier for/from fragments of the former British Empire. Fact is, the U.S. was rompin' and stompin' on other nations from the get go. That's how it came to be. Nothing magic about WWII, except for those who wish to ignore the previous and concurrent sins of their own empire building. The American contribution to the world of moral outlook is a lack of regard for social justice. It's both a result and a cause of their lack of investment in the two great social equalizers, public health care and public education. So, American society regards public conscience as a quaint notion and dismiss it, much as they mostly dismiss Chomsky. Actually, the U.S. "invests" far more per capita on health care and education than many other nations. Has nothing to do with Chomsky, who went to a private school. Canada is conflicted, being influenced by America, Europe and its own traditions. In the post-Regan era, American influence has won out, birthing Harperism and the accompanying destructive forces that will take decades to unwind. Poor Canada....still torn between the old empire and the evil Americans "south of the border". Well, at least you still have a "white" queen. Edited July 21, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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