bush_cheney2004 Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 ....The confederate flag is resented by a particular group of people who have been oppressed under its banner in the past.... and it is flown today by those who often agree with that historical oppression, or who even participate in the harassment, persecution, etc. of that particular group to this very day. More people were "oppressed" under the flags of Canada (and the United States of America)....but they are not rejected. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ReeferMadness Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Well, they send their sons. But if they start acting too Canadian they get shipped back home. That happened to my neighbour. And that will be fixed by banning the niqab? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
WestCoastRunner Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Had you bothered to check the background and history of THIS PARTICULAR niqab-wearer.... who took the citizenship oath today.... you would find that she is not-at-all oppressed by anybody.... except possibly for the harassment by the Canadian government. .... This woman will more than likely demand that her daughters wear the Niqab to school, and subject them to ridicule and oppression. The Niqab is an oppressive tool. Sometimes it's not just the father oppressing the female members of the family. Sometimes it is the mother too. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
ReeferMadness Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 So you didn't say it was the "bigoted base" that supports this? Of course you did. I can go back and quote it again I guess, but people can scroll back and look.Now you're changing your words. Here's what you said earlier (see if you can spot the difference) I said Reefer was wrong to say that this is only the CPC "bigoted base" that supports restrictions on wearing the niqab.You're wrong. I never said only the CPC bigoted base supports restricting the niqab. What I said what that Harper is pandering to bigots in his base when he talks of the niqab and advocates for a "barbaric cultural practices" hot line in the middle of an election. I stand by that statement and there is an open letter signed by almost 600 academics that says something similar. Nope. Laws that restrict certain freedoms do not necessarily equal oppression. Laws that restrict free speech, a fundemental right in Canada are not oppressive... Laws that say I can't wander around naked aren't oppressive... We, as a society, restrict freedoms all the time without being oppressive. Agreed that freedoms can be restricted but generally there must be some demonstration of harm (which is why Harper's stupid, divisive law was struck down in the first place). I'm not sure the law against nudity is the greatest example. It's a throwback to our Victorian past and I'm not sure that it would survive a charter challenge if it was passed today. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 This woman will more than likely demand that her daughters wear the Niqab to school, and subject them to ridicule and oppression. The Niqab is an oppressive tool. Sometimes it's not just the father oppressing the female members of the family. Sometimes it is the mother too. I grew up in a low income family and wore hand-me-downs. I was ridiculed but I never realized that I was oppressed until now. I wonder if I can get compensation from somebody. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
WestCoastRunner Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) I grew up in a low income family and wore hand-me-downs. I was ridiculed but I never realized that I was oppressed until now. I wonder if I can get compensation from somebody. Have you ever seen a male member of any society wear a Niqab? Edited October 10, 2015 by WestCoastRunner Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
dialamah Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 This woman will more than likely demand that her daughters wear the Niqab to school, and subject them to ridicule and oppression. The Niqab is an oppressive tool. Sometimes it's not just the father oppressing the female members of the family. Sometimes it is the mother too. She's given a few interviews; have you read any of them? She doesn't have daughters, but even if she did, I doubt she'd be forcing them to wear a niqab. http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/10/08/fight-to-wear-niqab-a-matter-of-principle-for-zunera-ishaq http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2015/03/16/why-i-intend-to-wear-a-niqab-at-my-citizenship-ceremony.html Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Have you ever seen a male member of any society wear a Niqab? Do you wear spiked high heels? I've never seen a guy wear them and they are clearly a symbol of a male dominated society. Women wear them because they are discriminated against because they are on average, shorter than men, and also due to societal pressure to look a certain way. Further, unlike niqabs, high heels cause demonstrable harm to women. Do you support a ban on high heels? What kind of penalty can we impose? ETA: And do you shave your armpits? Because frankly, that strikes me as a barbaric cultural practice. Edited October 10, 2015 by ReeferMadness Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Have you ever seen a male member of any society wear a Niqab? Earlier, you implied that her daughter would be oppressed because she would be ridiculed. Now are you saying that it's only oppression when females are ridiculed? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 I get nobody likes the niqab. I'm not crazy about it either. But there are tons of things that people wear that I think are stupid, harmful, oppressive or just plain offensive. That's part of living in an open society. You don't get to control what everyone else does just because you don't agree with it. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
dialamah Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 I get nobody likes the niqab. I'm not crazy about it either. But there are tons of things that people wear that I think are stupid, harmful, oppressive or just plain offensive. That's part of living in an open society. You don't get to control what everyone else does just because you don't agree with it. +1. Much as I do not like the niqab, I cannot agree that it's ok to ban it. There are other, better ways to reach out to truly oppressed women, whether they wear a niqab or not. Quote
eyeball Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 I think you're assuming that because there is this woman who has a choice, that must mean that they all choose this. I disagree completely that this is the case and that the opposite is actually true. Most people who wear this don't do so because they choose to. They do it because they have no choice. So we're humiliating these women because they won't resist? You'll have to excuse me but I still can't wrap my head around why punishing the woman for being oppressed is the enlightened path here. I fail to see why I should heed the call to ban the niqab because it is a sign of oppressive misogyny while the misogynists are being completely left out of the equation. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Icebound Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Icebound, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:30 PM, said: So Canadians don't like the niqab, and maybe many or even most Muslims don't like the niqab. Guess what? I bet the same is true of Black Leather Jackets with certain club logos.. Argus, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:59 PM, said: Do they want them banned? They want the niqabs banned. They haven’t been asked. Icebound, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:30 PM, said: This particular person happens to be very adapted to Canadian life.... nobody in her family wears the niqab... sisters, mother. Argus, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:59 PM, said: So she's a religious extremist. Before you make that assessment, you should speak to her about her beliefs Icebound, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:30 PM, said: had this issue been left alone.... then in 5 years she would have tired of it all and given it up, Argus, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:59 PM, said You act like religious belief is a fad, like wearing your hair in a certain style. Do you have any idea how absurd that is? Maybe not a fad… but religious belief can certainly be transient. The Catholic sacrament of Confession is a good example. … and religious dress is CERTAINLY transient. Catholic nuns used to wear a burka-like full-body dress, then it was reduced to a small headpiece with a waist-length cape. Today, most wear no headpiece at all except in certain circumstances. Or maybe just a headpiece without the cape. There was a time when a Catholic woman would be totally disgraced should she enter a church without a hat or a head-scarf. Today, nobody wears anything on their head. What IS absurd is your contention that a piece of cloth is going to destroy our country. THAT is TRULY absurd. Icebound, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:30 PM, said: But NOW, that we have turned it into such such a "big deal", you will see all kinds of people coming out of the woodwork using her as an "example to follow". Argus, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:59 PM, said Unlikely. Not many people want the world to treat them like an empty sack of clothe. And if they're in Quebec they soon won't be allowed to step into provincial government buildings wearing one. Well, gee, if nobody is going to use her example anyway, what purpose is achieved by a ban? Is this just to divert police from their real work to have them enforce another useless law? Icebound, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:30 PM, said: Harper's Conservatives, and the people who agree with them, .. Argus, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:59 PM, said You mean like three quarters of the population? Three quarters of the population should take a little time to analyze. instead of making a knee-jerk reaction to a non-issue. Furthermore, three-quarters of the population will not be affected whatsoever in their real lives, whether there is a niqab ban, or not, so their irrational opinion will not really matter one way or the other. Argus, on 09 Oct 2015 - 7:59 PM, said And why do all you lefties have amnesia about how this arose? It wasn't the Harper Conservatives who brought it up, it was the Quebec LIBERAL government. I don’t really care if Wilfred Laurier himself were to have started this. It is still bad policy. Quote
Icebound Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) This woman will more than likely demand that her daughters wear the Niqab to school, and subject them to ridicule and oppression. The Niqab is an oppressive tool. Sometimes it's not just the father oppressing the female members of the family. Sometimes it is the mother too. Again.... obviously you have not heard her tell her story. What makes you assume that she will "most likely demand"? Especially since she has explicitly said no such thing, but that she will teach them her understandings of her religion and HOPE that they accept it.... which is pretty much what every Canadian mother "hopes", and we all know what their percentage of success is. And remember, those children have aunts and grandparents ...and a FATHER...who DO NOT believe in the wearing of the niqab, so they will have varying infuences... and.... like most Canadian kids.... will make up their own minds as they approach adulthood. It blows my mind that you would assume what she would do, without knowing anything about her, obviously. Edited October 10, 2015 by Icebound Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 I agree with Argus, for once. There is wide support about this... including women who don't want other women who happen to be Muslim to be under their spouse's authoritarian rule. So to call it "the bigoted base" is really ignoring the facts... It's a non issue that has had way too much time spent on it. The charter protects individual rights. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Good luck with that. As long as Lynton Crosby is giving Harper instructions, you can expect more race baiting. Well we can always hope. At least she will get to vote. I bet I can guess who she's not voting for. Quote
eyeball Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 I agree with Argus, for once. There is wide support about this... including women who don't want other women who happen to be Muslim to be under their spouse's authoritarian rule. Go after the spouse, authoritarian rule and stop picking on their victims who will come out when they're ready, on their own. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
The_Squid Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Go after the spouse, authoritarian rule and stop picking on their victims who will come out when they're ready, on their own. I absolutely agree that should happen as well! Quote
dialamah Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Go after the spouse, authoritarian rule and stop picking on their victims who will come out when they're ready, on their own. I like this idea in theory but I wonder how it could be implemented? Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) I heard on CBC news that soon some 600 Canadian academics would release a statement condemning political manipulations for political gains based on religion and race by a certain political party. In fact I found the open letter. The following letter has been signed by 587 Canadian academics, condemning the tactics being employed by the Conservative Party of Canada in the current federal election campaign. It will appear in newspapers tomorrow, but there is no room in print to reproduce all of the signatures. So we are making the full list available here: http://induecourse.ca/open-letter-regarding-conservative-party-campaign-tactics/ Edited October 10, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
Argus Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 I heard on CBC news that soon some 600 Canadian academics would release a statement condemning political manipulations for political gains based on religion and race by a certain political party. Posting the same thing in multiple topics is against the rules. Not to mention it's already been previously posted. I don't know why the Left thing we should give such credence to a bunch of Lefties denouncing Harper just because they're academics anyway. Is it that you're all so ignorant that the idea of academics saying something causes you to gasp and hold your hands together in reverence at the implied learned knowledge? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
ReeferMadness Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Posting the same thing in multiple topics is against the rules. Not to mention it's already been previously posted. I don't know why the Left thing we should give such credence to a bunch of Lefties denouncing Harper just because they're academics anyway. Is it that you're all so ignorant that the idea of academics saying something causes you to gasp and hold your hands together in reverence at the implied learned knowledge? Yes. For some reason, after Harper and his cronies dumped science in favor of religion, now it seems like academics don't have much regard for him. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ToadBrother Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Posting the same thing in multiple topics is against the rules.Not to mention it's already been previously posted. I don't know why the Left thing we should give such credence to a bunch of Lefties denouncing Harper just because they're academics anyway. Is it that you're all so ignorant that the idea of academics saying something causes you to gasp and hold your hands together in reverence at the implied learned knowledge? You really do have a chip on your shoulder. Didn't a physicist steal your girlfriend? Quote
angrypenguin Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 You really do have a chip on your shoulder. Didn't a physicist steal your girlfriend? I could argue the same about many lefties. Why let it get personal though? Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Argus Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Yes. For some reason, after Harper and his cronies dumped science in favor of religion, now it seems like academics don't have much regard for him. As I have said before, this is an issue in which the really dramatic cultural difference in view are not that of fundamentalist Muslims vs secular Canada, but the extraordinary unanimity of political correctness among the central Canada artistic, media and academic elites, vs everyone else. The pundits and columnists can hardly contain their indignation and outrage. Look at Andrew Coyne. He looks like his head is going to explode over it every time he can get himself on TV to scream abuse at Harper. Yet every poll shows massive support from the people of Canada across all demographic lines and including immigrants. It just shows how out of touch these smug and sanctimonious elites are with regular people. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.