.

[Argus]

If our culture decides to legislate what women cannot wear, they are doing the same thing as countries such as Saudi Arabia

And France...

[dialamah]

As PIK says - Harper doesn't run to the cameras......it's just not his style.

Link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harper-called-egyptian-president-about-fahmys-case-official-says/article23344506/

Thanks for the info, I am corrected.

[Hydraboss]

...I am corrected.

So you're voting CPC? Awesome!

[dialamah]

So you're voting CPC? Awesome!

I did hear that Trudeau is advising that we forgive and welcome back into the fold our Progressive Conservative countrymen for their unfortunate aberration in following Stephen Harper for 10 years. There not being a Progressive Conservative party at this time, I guess I'll have to stick with Trudeau. Maybe next time, if y'all can fix what's wrong.

“Most importantly, Progressive Conservatives – Tories – can be proud that their prime ministers didn’t base everything on wedge politics. They didn’t divide Canadians over differences of religion or citizenship. Progressive Conservative prime ministers believed that a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian,” Mr. Trudeau said in front of hundreds of supporters. For more than a year, Mr. Trudeau has told Liberal supporters that they should not see the Conservatives as their enemies, but rather as their neighbours and family members. He is repeatedly making the pitch in the last days of the campaign as he goes to ridings that are currently in Conservative hands in places like New Brunswick and Ontario.

“We don’t need to convince them to leave the Conservative Party, we just need to show them how Stephen Harper’s party has left them,” Mr. Trudeau said.

[PIK]

Cite, please. Else I'll assume this is not true.

Google ''harper betrayed me''. He is speaking today and blaming harper for all his problems. But yet having meetings with trudeau and mulcair. I bet he gets a job if one of those 2 win.

[Michael Hardner]

Let's get this thread back on topic

[SpankyMcFarland]

Our ancestors came here to get away for oppressive traditions and now we want to bring those traditions here? There is no religious reason to wear them and when Muslims countries don't allow it why are we? Can you people not put away the hatred for harper and look at what you are proposing. This is just a start of a attack on our way of life and it needs to be stopped in its tracks.

Actually, I think we got away from the people who were trying to get away from the oppressive traditions - we are the

conformists in North America, unlike our rowdier friends to the south. Does peace, order and good government sound like a ringing call to arms?

[SpankyMcFarland]

The niqab debate has mobilized some Muslims I know against Harper. He must have looked at the numbers in thecountry and decided they were not worth bothering about.

Edited October 14, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland

[ToadBrother]

The niqab debate has mobilized some Muslims I know against Harper. He must have looked at the numbers in thecountry and decided they were not worth bothering about.

That's what campaigning is about. You divide demographic groups into those who will definitely vote for you, those you think you can sway and those who will never vote for you. At that point you can either ignore the latter group, or even demonize them to freak out the other two groups.

[SpankyMcFarland]

That's what campaigning is about. You divide demographic groups into those who will definitely vote for you, those you think you can sway and those who will never vote for you. At that point you can either ignore the latter group, or even demonize them to freak out the other two groups.

The risk there is that you increase the turnout in the third group. I have seen that happen among Muslms this time, people who would not usually vote.

[Argus]

The niqab debate has mobilized some Muslims I know against Harper. He must have looked at the numbers in thecountry and decided they were not worth bothering about.

Muslims were never going to vote for Harper anyway because he supports Israel.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Muslims were never going to vote for Harper anyway because he supports Israel.

The point I am making is that I know of Muslims who would not usually have voted at all who voted this time.So that is a negative for Harper.

Edited October 14, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland

[ToadBrother]

Muslims were never going to vote for Harper anyway because he supports Israel.

And we have the Tory campaign machine in a nutshell. Identify the demographic that you think can deliver you seats, and identify the demographic you think can't, and try to pit the two against each other.

[TimG]

Here is an example of the "freedom" that people are so keen to defend:

According to several sources who witnessed the confrontation, but are not authorized to speak with media, the woman was willing to remove her face covering in order to become a Canadian citizen.

Her husband, however, refused to allow her to show her face.

As officials scrambled to explain the rules and get the ceremony underway, the man grew increasingly hostile and “abusive” with citizenship managers. He insisted they “enforce his wishes” that his wife remain veiled.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/10/13/citizenship-ceremony-got-heated-over-niqab

Niqabs ARE a tool to oppress women. These are the attitudes that are being condoned.

[dialamah]

Niqabs ARE a tool to oppress women. These are the attitudes that are being condoned.

In this instance, the man insisting his wife HAD to wear it despite her wishes was indeed oppressive. I agree.

In Ishaq's instance, the government insisting that she HAD to remove it, despite her wishes, was also oppressive.

Choosing to wear a niqab, or not wear it, does not present any danger to either the wearer or to those around her. Thus, removing the choice of wearing it impinges on the right of the woman in question. It doesn't matter if its her husband insisting she wear it, or the government insisting she not wear it.

[dre]

Here is an example of the "freedom" that people are so keen to defend:

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/10/13/citizenship-ceremony-got-heated-over-niqab

Niqabs ARE a tool to oppress women. These are the attitudes that are being condoned.

Not at all. The freedom for women to wear what they want can certainly be abused, and conservative men have been bullying them into dressing certain ways for centuries. But the answer is not for the government to start banning certain garments or limit womens freedom.

[BC_chick]

It may not be individually oppressive, but it's definitely culturally oppressive. A Canadian woman in a niqab is going to have a heck of a time making friends, getting a job, driving, or sitting on a park bench to enjoy her lunch. Just because she's been brainwashed to believe it's good for her, it doens't make the custom ok.

[Canada_First]

Wouldn't it better to just ban it altogether and tell people who wish to live that sort of lifestyle to simply not come to Canada? Tell them that these radical religious/cultural practices are not welcome here? I don't think we need to be so afraid to be direct. This is Canada and in Canada we don't subscribe to such ideologies and neither do our citizens or wannabe citizens. Problem solved.

[ToadBrother]

Wouldn't it better to just ban it altogether and tell people who wish to live that sort of lifestyle to simply not come to Canada? Tell them that these radical religious/cultural practices are not welcome here? I don't think we need to be so afraid to be direct. This is Canada and in Canada we don't subscribe to such ideologies and neither do our citizens or wannabe citizens. Problem solved.

This whole freedom thing has you a little confused. While a government might be able to pull off banning face coverings in government facilities, though I think the arguments are spurious and the problem virtually non-existent, we have a Charter which would almost certainly throw out some sort of a general ban, and rightfully so.

[Canada_First]

This whole freedom thing has you a little confused. While a government might be able to pull off banning face coverings in government facilities, though I think the arguments are spurious and the problem virtually non-existent, we have a Charter which would almost certainly throw out some sort of a general ban, and rightfully so.

Notwithstanding clause.

[dialamah]

It may not be individually oppressive, but it's definitely culturally oppressive. A Canadian woman in a niqab is going to have a heck of a time making friends, getting a job, driving, or sitting on a park bench to enjoy her lunch.

You know what, I agree. Wearing a face-covering in this society isn't going to do her much good, regardless of how it makes her feel in regards to her particular deity. I would expect that niqab wearing would continue to be a pretty rare occurrence, if women are given the choice. Prohibit it, and you are likely to make it seem more 'desirable' among those who feel obliged to suffer in some way to prove their godliness.

Just because she's been brainwashed to believe it's good for her, it doens't make the custom ok.

Assuming every woman has been brainwashed is a mistake. How do you explain the 20+ something white woman, raised Canadian, who converts to Islam and then takes up the veil, all before marriage?

From what I have read, it's less often a matter of brainwashing than that some women just roll that way.

That doesn't negate the fact that SOME women are made to wear it by their family/husband, but its not true for all of them.

[Canada_First]

Assuming every woman has been brainwashed is a mistake. How do you explain the 20+ something white woman, raised Canadian, who converts to Islam and then takes up the veil, all before marriage?

From what I have read, it's less often a matter of brainwashing than that some women just roll that way.

That doesn't negate the fact that SOME women are made to wear it by their family/husband, but its not true for all of them.

I guess, but then don't come here and tell us all that such a woman is progressive. That religion and that cultural practice is one of the most oppressive in our modern society. I don't see how it fits into a progressive, modern, secular society. If such a woman is so conservative in her views that she feels she must wear a veil in order to protect her then she also believes some pretty messed up things from that religion. You cannot have one without the other in this case.

[ToadBrother]

I guess, but then don't come here and tell us all that such a woman is progressive. That religion and that cultural practice is one of the most oppressive in our modern society. I don't see how it fits into a progressive, modern, secular society. If such a woman is so conservative in her views that she feels she must wear a veil in order to protect her then she also believes some pretty messed up things from that religion. You cannot have one without the other in this case.

Which, even if true, couldn't possibly justify banning the niqab. A free society even has to tolerate intolerant people.

[BC_chick]

Assuming every woman has been brainwashed is a mistake. How do you explain the 20+ something white woman, raised Canadian, who converts to Islam and then takes up the veil, all before marriage?

She's been brainwashed.

noun brain·wash·ing \ˈbrān-ˌwȯ-shiŋ, -ˌwä-\

Definition of BRAINWASHING

1

: a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas

2

: persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

— brain·wash transitive verb

— brainwash noun

— brain·wash·er noun

[dialamah]

I guess, but then don't come here and tell us all that such a woman is progressive.

I don't consider anyone who believes in some kind of deity particularly progressive, including Christians. The more intolerant their beliefs, the less progressive I consider them, Christian, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu.

But that doesn't mean I have the right to tell them that they can't wear their religious symbols. If wearing a cross 24/7 works for them, have at it. If counting rosary beads for blessings (or whatever it is Catholics do) is part of your faith, count'em whenever/wherever you want. You want to dress in long brown robes and live in a man-only commune, while talking as little as possible, that's entirely fine with me. If your thing is wearing a niqab, then wear it.

Issues of male domination or oppression are an issue in many cultures, including Canadian culture. Those certainly need to be addressed on an ongoing basis. But taking the niqab off a few dozen women is not addressing the problem.