dialamah Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Can you explain to us why you think a religion that dislikes homosexuals enough that it somtimes kills them is no different than a religion that dislikes homosexuals and doesn't kill them? it's hard for a rational person to take anything seriously from someone who could hold such a illogical position, so maybe you can clarify it. Some Christians have killed homosexuals. Some Christians have killed abortion providers. That doesn't mean *all* Christians do, or would do it, or even approve of it. People around the world are not so different; Religion makes them either a better version of themselves, or a worse version. In the case of ISIS, it's a MUCH worse version. But ISIS is not all Muslims, not even close. Quote
Big Guy Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Saying the niqab is part of a moderate religious view is, frankly, totally absurd. It's an oppressive cultural practice that even most Muslims think is not right. You mat be correct. The idea of forcing women to wear a particular garment and hair covering could be considered oppressive and certainly not moderate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_habit And if you want to get into self flagellation and mortification of the flesh you could always join that radical sect called the Opus Dei of the radical religion called Catholicism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei We have to keep our eyes on those religions which tend towards radical and extremist practices. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
dialamah Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I think you mean moron, not maroon. Sorry. I'm a freelance writer. LOL. thanks for fixing it, but I have to tell you, I intended to write maroon. In the famous words of Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon!". Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Saying the niqab is part of a moderate religious view is, frankly, totally absurd. Who said that? It's an oppressive cultural practice that even most Muslims think is not right. It's only oppressive if it isn't a free choice. I keep asking and you keep ignoring the only relevant question. Who the hell are you to decide who is being oppressed? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
WestCoastRunner Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I never said he was right because there's wide support. I said Reefer was wrong to say that this is only the CPC "bigoted base" that supports restrictions on wearing the niqab. The "rightness" of it is based on being against the religious/cultural oppression of women, not because it's a popular viewpoint. Agree. I'm certainly not from a bigoted base nor am I a supporter of Harper. Does that make me an ignorant citizen playing into politics and their fears. Not likely. I'm against the symbolism that the niqab represents. The confederate flag was rejected because of its symbolism. The niqab is no different. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
dialamah Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I never said he was right because there's wide support. I said Reefer was wrong to say that this is only the CPC "bigoted base" that supports restrictions on wearing the niqab. The "rightness" of it is based on being against the religious/cultural oppression of women, not because it's a popular viewpoint. Except that you are assuming it's oppression in every single case, and its simply not. It doesn't take a lot of research to discover that, but most people can't be bothered. And, even in the case where a woman is being oppressed, forcing her to remove her niqab is not going to help. It may even make her situation worse. All the do-good feelings in the world won't help a woman who is oppressed if people consider only their own feelings/thoughts/beliefs, instead of the oppressed persons'. Quote
The_Squid Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I'm assuming nothing of the sort. This is a negative stereotype. Like most stereotypes, there may be truth to it but limiting individual choice based on a group stereotype is discriminatory. I'm amazed that I have to explain this to people in 2015!! The people demanding that women dress like this are from an extreme sect of Islam in Pakistan and Afghanistan, for the most part. It's not a stereotype at all. That's like saying it's a stereotype that the kilt is worn by the Scots. It's more of a fact than a stereotype. who are you to say she can't be a functional part of Canadian society? The arrogance! Because she is dressed head to toe in a bag! Get with reality a little here... employable? Nope. I wouldn't hire someone who remains hidden. Maybe she could work within her own society in some part of Toronto where this is more common, but within society in general, this isn't acceptable. Would you ban the kilt? Lederhosen? The kippah? We live in a pluralistic society and that means we tolerate and embrace differences. You don't have the right to decide whether anyone else is being oppressed. Of course I do... I can look at the facts and determine this quite easily. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 I never said he was right because there's wide support. I said Reefer was wrong to say that this is only the CPC "bigoted base" that supports restrictions on wearing the niqab. You must find it so much easier to debate me when you put words in my mouth. The "rightness" of it is based on being against the religious/cultural oppression of women, not because it's a popular viewpoint. It's an individual right for a woman to wear what she wants. If you deny her that, YOU are the oppressor. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
The_Squid Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 You mat be correct. The idea of forcing women to wear a particular garment and hair covering could be considered oppressive and certainly not moderate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_habit And if you want to get into self flagellation and mortification of the flesh you could always join that radical sect called the Opus Dei of the radical religion called Catholicism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei We have to keep our eyes on those religions which tend towards radical and extremist practices. If you want to beat yourself with a stick because of religious reasons, go ahead. If you want to beat your wife with a stick for religious reasons, that's not acceptable in Canada. Quote
dialamah Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Agree. I'm certainly not from a bigoted base nor am I a supporter of Harper. Does that make me an ignorant citizen playing into politics and their fears. Not likely. I'm against the symbolism that the niqab represents. The confederate flag was rejected because of its symbolism. The niqab is no different. Having people take that flag down did not run the risk of increasing oppression. Forcing women who ARE oppressed to remove their niqab won't help; it will make them more invisible and less able to access help should they need it. Forcing women who wear it by choice to take it off won't reduce oppression for other women. Quote
The_Squid Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 You must find it so much easier to debate me when you put words in my mouth. It's an individual right for a woman to wear what she wants. If you deny her that, YOU are the oppressor. So you didn't say it was the "bigoted base" that supports this? Of course you did. I can go back and quote it again I guess, but people can scroll back and look. Nope. Laws that restrict certain freedoms do not necessarily equal oppression. Laws that restrict free speech, a fundemental right in Canada are not oppressive... Laws that say I can't wander around naked aren't oppressive... We, as a society, restrict freedoms all the time without being oppressive. Quote
Argus Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 And negative stereotypes are a sign of bigotry. And denying the obvious is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy and ignorance. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) I'm against the symbolism that the niqab represents. As am I. But when you outlaw a symbol, you're now engaging in thought crime. The confederate flag was rejected because of its symbolism. The niqab is no different. Perfect example. They took the confederate flag down from the state legislature but they didn't outlaw the flag. If we were flying a niqab on the parliament buildings, I'd be in favor or taking it down too. You can think whatever you like about the niqab - but individuals still have rights. And you are not entitled to decide someone else is being oppressed. Edited October 9, 2015 by ReeferMadness Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Forcing women who wear it by choice to take it off won't reduce oppression for other women. Forcing women who wear it by choice to take it off IS oppression. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Argus Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 There are 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world and it's estimated that there are about 106,000 extremists; that's .00006625% of all Muslims. Really? And who made this estimate? There were 25,000 terrorist incidents in the name of Islam in the past ten years. Do you think they were all done by a tiny group of people? And what, exactly, do you call an extremist? If you believe anyone who leaves Islam or blasphemes or is gay should be executed are you an extremist if you don't actually go and shoot them yourself? Or are you a uhm, 'moderate'? Over 95% of the women in Egypt have had their clitorises removed. Do you think the families who had that done were moderates? PEW research surveys have shown that in some Muslim nations over 90% of respondents believed anyone who blasphemes or tries to leave Islam should be executed. Do you call them moderates because they're not strapping on suicide vests? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 So Canadians don't like the niqab, and maybe many or even most Muslims don't like the niqab. Guess what? I bet the same is true of Black Leather Jackets with certain club logos.. Do they want them banned? They want the niqabs banned. This particular person happens to be very adapted to Canadian life.... nobody in her family wears the niqab... sisters, mother. So she's a religious extremist. So? My point has always been we need fewer such people in Canada, not more. Why would be import them? .. had this issue been left alone.... then in 5 years she would have tired of it all and given it up, You act like religious belief is a fad, like wearing your hair in a certain style. Do you have any idea how absurd that is? But NOW, that we have turned it into such such a "big deal", you will see all kinds of people coming out of the woodwork using her as an "example to follow". Unlikely. Not many people want the world to treat them like an empty sack of clothe. And if they're in Quebec they soon won't be allowed to step into provincial government buildings wearing one. Harper's Conservatives, and the people who agree with them, .. You mean like three quarters of the population? And why do all you lefties have amnesia about how this arose? It wasn't the Harper Conservatives who brought it up, it was the Quebec LIBERAL government. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
BC_chick Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 So you didn't say it was the "bigoted base" that supports this? Of course you did. I can go back and quote it again I guess, but people can scroll back and look. Nope. Laws that restrict certain freedoms do not necessarily equal oppression. Laws that restrict free speech, a fundemental right in Canada are not oppressive... Laws that say I can't wander around naked aren't oppressive... We, as a society, restrict freedoms all the time without being oppressive. Several dozen pages ago I got involved in this debate and while I still think niqabs and burkas should be banned, I did come to the realization that my belief is actually an emotional one. As many others pointed out, banning niqabs does not address the real issue of how these women may be treated and lots of clothing styles make me uncomfortable, but it doesn't mean we should ban them through legislation. Having said that, I still stand by my emotions on this one. I would like to see our country take a stance that women's beautiful faces should never be covered up. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
Argus Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Some Christians have killed homosexuals. Some Christians have killed abortion providers. That doesn't mean *all* Christians do, or would do it, or even approve of it. People around the world are not so different; Really? Then I invite you to go and start up a gay pride march in Cairo or Tehran or Beirut or Kuala Lumpur. Even better, try it in Islamabad. You won't have to even worry about the government. Enraged mobs will tear you apart before the police can get near. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 There once was a Muslim couple walking down the street. The woman was wearing a burka and carrying a heavy load and the man was beating her to encourage her to move faster. Three progressives stood at the side of the road watching. One opened his mouth to speak a protest, said "er," very softly, but then closed it again. The second raised his finger, hesitantly, then lowered it. The third whimpered sadly. Then a conservative happened along. "Hey, you moron! Stop that, you idiot! We don't do crap like that in this country!"The man stopped beating his wife in confusion, then the three progressives gasped in horror, rushing to embrace him and chastising the conservative for not respecting his culture. "We respect you!" cried one! "Ignore that evil bigot!" cried the second. The third just cried and hugged him. The conservative shook his head and walked on. The Muslim detached himself with some distaste from the progressives, and moved on, hitting his wife with the stick to get her to move faster. The progressives stared angrily after the conservative, fuming about his insensitivity, and ignoring the Muslim hitting his wife as they moved off in the other direction. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
The_Squid Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Several dozen pages ago I got involved in this debate and while I still think niqabs and burkas should be banned, I did come to the realization that my belief is actually an emotional one. As many others pointed out, banning niqabs does not address the real issue of how these women may be treated and lots of clothing styles make me uncomfortable, but it doesn't mean we should ban them through legislation. Having said that, I still stand by my emotions on this one. I would like to see our country take a stance that women's beautiful faces should never be covered up. I think it would send a message to religions or cultures that the oppression of women will not be tolerated in Canada. I don't think that type of message should be underestimated. What happens when a 6yr old is sent to school in a niqab? Some liberal-leaning people in Canada say that's ok. I say it would lead to ostracizing and ridicule. Obviously, no 6yr old would choose that for herself. It takes a special kind of religious nut bar to think that girls and women shouldn't be seen or heard. Do I think these types of religious people even send their children to public school? Not likely.... Quote
Argus Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Do I think these types of religious people even send their children to public school? Not likely.... Well, they send their sons. But if they start acting too Canadian they get shipped back home. That happened to my neighbour. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Really? Then I invite you to go and start up a gay pride march in Cairo or Tehran or Beirut or Kuala Lumpur.Even better, try it in Islamabad. You won't have to even worry about the government. Enraged mobs will tear you apart before the police can get near. Take away the charter and the separation of state and religion, I expect it would be just as chancy to hold a gay pride parade in Canada. Quote
Argus Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Take away the charter and the separation of state and religion, I expect it would be just as chancy to hold a gay pride parade in Canada. Oh please. Don't be any more ridiculous than you have to be. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 Several dozen pages ago I got involved in this debate and while I still think niqabs and burkas should be banned, I did come to the realization that my belief is actually an emotional one. As many others pointed out, banning niqabs does not address the real issue of how these women may be treated and lots of clothing styles make me uncomfortable, but it doesn't mean we should ban them through legislation. Having said that, I still stand by my emotions on this one. I would like to see our country take a stance that women's beautiful faces should never be covered up. Nicely said. But how would banning the niqab achieve that goal? Whether the woman is forced to wear it or chooses to wear it, banning it will mean that she'll just stay home or chance getting arrested I suppose. I don't like the impications of the niqab either, and I'm a little uncomfortable with it, but having come from a fundamental religious background years and years ago, I know that people will face death rather than betray their beliefs. I truly don't understand how people can possibly think banning the niqab is actually going to somehow make these women take it off. Quote
Icebound Posted October 10, 2015 Report Posted October 10, 2015 The confederate flag was rejected because of its symbolism. The niqab is no different. The niqab is VERY different. The confederate flag is resented by a particular group of people who have been oppressed under its banner in the past.... and it is flown today by those who often agree with that historical oppression, or who even participate in the harassment, persecution, etc. of that particular group to this very day. A Canadian is not under any risk of persecution by a niqab-wearer, Even according to your own logic, it is the niqab-wearer who is oppressed, not the Canadians. (If you want to ban the ISIS flag, then maybe you have something.) Had you bothered to check the background and history of THIS PARTICULAR niqab-wearer.... who took the citizenship oath today.... you would find that she is not-at-all oppressed by anybody.... except possibly for the harassment by the Canadian government. .... Quote
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