Return Of Long Form Census

[On Guard for Thee]

I believe that no one in Canada has ever been jailed for refusing to fill out a census form.

There have been a number of convictions, the elderly woman in TO comes to mind who refused because the info was being processed by software fro of all people, Lockheed Martin,( how does that work), but I think you are correct that no one has been jailed.

[jacee]

The law has been changed already. You are asking for it to be changed back. The onus for proof is on the person asking for change.

Unlike you I don't take experts at their word. I ask to see the evidence that supports their claims.

I think we all know that the group lobbying against the LFC are rich Harper supporters who don't pay taxes and hide their money overseas.

Lying on their tax forms doesn't seem to bother them, but apparently lying on the LFC does. I suspect they're afraid they'll get their lies mixed up and someone will be paying attention.

.

[Keepitsimple]

I think we all know that the group lobbying against the LFC are rich Harper supporters who don't pay taxes and hide their money overseas.

Lying on their tax forms doesn't seem to bother them, but apparently lying on the LFC does. I suspect they're afraid they'll get their lies mixed up and someone will be paying attention.

.

.....another one of your emotional rants?

.

[TimG]

I think we all know that the group lobbying against the LFC are rich Harper supporters who don't pay taxes and hide their money overseas.

I am willing to bet that Conservative supporters are, on average, more honest about taxes than Liberal or NDP supporters because Conservatives put more value on city duty and the law than supporters of other parties. They are less likely to think that they are "owed" a living by society.

[Black Dog]

I am willing to bet that Conservative supporters are, on average, more honest about taxes than Liberal or NDP supporters because Conservatives put more value on city duty and the law than supporters of other parties. They are less likely to think that they are "owed" a living by society.

Conservatives are also more likely to believe they pay too much taxes, want small government and to keep more of what's "theirs" while rejecting the notion they owe society anything. Definitely tax cheats.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Black Dog

[Big Guy]

Unfortunately. that is what happens when people end up painting themselves into political corners. When they feel challenged they react by reflex.

The idea that there is a correlation between the honesty, integrity and intelligence of people and the support of a particular political party is ludicrous. Intelligent people who are able to listen, consider other views and change their minds based on newly available changing information suddenly morph into "my guy is good, your guy is bad" airheads.

Most people change their political and philosophical alliances as they grow through life as their experiences change. What you support today is right for you. What I support today is right for me. We are both correct to ourselves. I believe that becoming wise is to try to understand why other people, whose opinion you respect, disagree with you. If you do not respect their opinion then you ignore it.

This continuing "mine is bigger or better than yours" banter is something akin to adolescent playground interaction.

[Moonlight Graham]

Can you explain how that works? How can a statistical test tell how much data is bad because people choose to enter inaccurate responses? Find it hard to believe such errors are detectable without a set of 'known to be correct' data.

The problem is, a voluntary census would also be skewed. There are certain types of demographics that will fill it out, and certain types that won't. If, say, middle-aged rural folks (who tend to be more conservative) won't fill it out voluntarily, or single mothers won't fill it out because they have no spare time, then the data removed them from the results and corrupts the data. There may also be people who voluntarily fill it out, but not answer very question truthfully.

You mentioned similar skewing problems for those that will fill it out truthfully if forced by law to fill it out. So either way, the data will be filled with inaccurate data. Nevertheless, some data is better than none. Making research surveys like the census is also a highly studied area of research in itself, surveys are one of the most basic forms of social science statistical research, so I'm sure most anything we say in this thread has already been studied by researchers/scholars.

[On Guard for Thee]

I am willing to bet that Conservative supporters are, on average, more honest about taxes than Liberal or NDP supporters because Conservatives put more value on city duty and the law than supporters of other parties. They are less likely to think that they are "owed" a living by society.

Do you mean Conservative supporters like Arthur Porter?

[overthere]

No doubt the stats gleamed from the census are extremely useful in making sound public policy. The long-form census is yet another dilemma in the classic political question of individual privacy rights vs the collective good. Anyone's answer to that question will come down do what they personally value more.

If the results from the census I fill out could be kept completely anonymous at all points in the process, thus my privacy secured, then I would favour doing the census and others concerned with privacy wouldn't have much of an argument. It would also need to be made sure that people fill out the forms accurately.

Every speck of information you provide in the census- excepting your name and specific address- is packaged and sold many times by Statistics Canada to anybody who will pay for it. And they are numerous, lots of corporations want to know family incomes and ethnicities and ages and everything else in your postal code.

If I'm going to be sold, I want a cut.

[jacee]

I am willing to bet that Conservative supporters are, on average, more honest about taxes than Liberal or NDP supporters because Conservatives put more value on city duty and the law than supporters of other parties. They are less likely to think that they are "owed" a living by society.

Horsesh!t.

Only the rich have reason to lie.

.

[TimG]

Only the rich have reason to lie.

How many people working for tips declare their cash income? That is tax cheating yet very common. How many people pay cash to avoid GST? That is tax evasion that people from all income groups engage in. How many people take cash for work on the side while they are collecting EI or welfare? More cheating. How many people don't declare their purchases when returning from the US? More cheating. You are completely delusional if you believe only the rich have a reason or the ability to cheat the system. What separates the honest from the cheaters is someone's attitude towards society. If someone has a exaggerated sense of entitlement the one is likely to cheat whether one is making minimum wage or a million dollars a year. Edited February 6, 2015 by TimG

[overthere]

Horsesh!t.

Only the rich have reason to lie.

.

do you think poor people are 'progessives'?

I think they are unlikely to vote at all.

Or perhaps you are burdened by the eternal conceit of the left, that everybody who did not vote would have voted NDP if only....

[jacee]

do you think poor people are 'progessives'?

I think they are unlikely to vote at all.

Or perhaps you are burdened by the eternal conceit of the left, that everybody who did not vote would have voted NDP if only....

Just saying only the uber rich hiding money from the taxman have reason to lie on the census, and more of them vote conservative.

[The_Squid]

Every speck of information you provide in the census- excepting your name and specific address- is packaged and sold many times by Statistics Canada to anybody who will pay for it. And they are numerous, lots of corporations want to know family incomes and ethnicities and ages and everything else in your postal code.

If I'm going to be sold, I want a cut.

You do get a cut in terms of the funding of Stats Canada. No funding source = more tax revenue needed to fund that agency.

[Big Guy]

The case for reinstating the long form census is very strong and building;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/scrapping-of-long-form-census-causing-long-term-issues-for-business-groups/article22846497/

When the natural supporters of the Conservative government like The Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Canadian Federation of Independent Business, Canadian Economics Association, Martin Prosperity Institute, Toronto Regional Board of Trade, Restaurants Canada and the Canadian Association of Business Economics have all told the Globe and Mail they want reinstatement of the mandatory long form then I hope that the most partisan pro-Harper loyalists have to think that maybe it was a mistake.

Is there any organization that supports the current census?

If there is then please share.

[On Guard for Thee]

The case for reinstating the long form census is very strong and building;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/scrapping-of-long-form-census-causing-long-term-issues-for-business-groups/article22846497/

When the natural supporters of the Conservative government like The Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Canadian Federation of Independent Business, Canadian Economics Association, Martin Prosperity Institute, Toronto Regional Board of Trade, Restaurants Canada and the Canadian Association of Business Economics have all told the Globe and Mail they want reinstatement of the mandatory long form then I hope that the most partisan pro-Harper loyalists have to think that maybe it was a mistake.

Is there any organization that supports the current census?

If there is then please share.

The CPC is the only one I can think of.

[eyeball]

If someone has a exaggerated sense of entitlement the one is likely to cheat whether one is making minimum wage or a million dollars a year.

I bet lots of people claim they make more than they actually do out of a sad conflation of self esteem and self worth...shame in a word, entangled with net worth and the moral imperative to produce. The need or desire to pad one's numbers to look or feel good at times is probably universal.

[jacee]

Finally, some common sense:

/a-possible-compromise-on-the-census/

Michael Chong seems a good candidate for the cpc leadership.

.

[jacee]

And ... who knew!

Last spring, the auditor general found that the voluntary household survey for 2011 was $22 million more expensive than the long-form census and proved to be much less reliable.

Sharp move, Harper! :/

.

[Keepitsimple]

Finally, some common sense:

/a-possible-compromise-on-the-census/

Michael Chong seems a good candidate for the cpc leadership.

.

Would you vote for them then?

,

[Bob Macadoo]

Would you vote for them then?

,

He's show himself to be a solid representative, but a bit of a wallflower to be a caucus leader......maybe a good deputy.

[Topaz]

One solution is for the provinces to do this themselves, after all, Harper wants the provinces to be more responsible for things and just wait until the Health care issue comes up, hopeful Harper will be gone.

[cybercoma]

There are certain types of demographics that will fill it out, and certain types that won't.

That's indeed the problem. Self-selection is non-random. Techniques would have to be applied to negotiate for these issues. More importantly, it's usually non-english/french speakers and those living in poverty who are least likely to fill these out. A significant proportion of our social programs are designed to help these people.

Now if you're a Conservative and don't believe we should have a government that does anything but imprison its citizens and drop bombs on foreign nations, then it becomes obvious why they would hate accurate and meaningful data collection.

[cybercoma]

Every speck of information you provide in the census- excepting your name and specific address- is packaged and sold many times by Statistics Canada to anybody who will pay for it.

Cite?

Edit: Here's the legal code that regulates StatsCan and their employees and contractors.

17. (1) Except for the purpose of communicating information in accordance with any conditions of an agreement made under section 11 or 12 and except for the purposes of a prosecution under this Act but subject to this section,

(a) no person, other than a person employed or deemed to be employed under this Act, and sworn under section 6, shall be permitted to examine any identifiable individual return made for the purposes of this Act; and

( no person who has been sworn under section 6 shall disclose or knowingly cause to be disclosed, by any means, any information obtained under this Act in such a manner that it is possible from the disclosure to relate the particulars obtained from any individual return to any identifiable individual person, business or organization.

And the oath that they're referring to is this:

6. (1) The Chief Statistician and every person employed or deemed to be employed pursuant to this Act shall, before entering on his duties, take and subscribe the following oath or solemn affirmation:

I, ___________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully and honestly fulfil my duties as an employee of Statistics Canada in conformity with the requirements of the Statistics Act, and of all rules and instructions thereunder and that I will not without due authority in that behalf disclose or make known any matter or thing that comes to my knowledge by reason of my employment.

So you'll need to provide some reference, if you're going to claim that they're breaking the law up at StatsCan.

Edited February 7, 2015 by cybercoma

[jacee]

Would you vote for them then?

,

That would be a wasted vote in my riding, except with PR of course.

However, the quality of our political leaders reflects on all Canadians.

.