Israel's war crimes in Gaza

[jacee]

Yes sir one way to avoid and try focus away from Muslim extremist terrorism in and outside Israel against innocent civilians is to start yet another thread demonizing Israel.

Imagine that.

Maybe Israel is demonizing itself, Rue.

Certainly the tide of public opinion has turned due to perceived atrocities against innocents.

The "double tap" practice ... bombing, waiting, bombing again to harm the families and medical personnel who come to help the initial victims ...

Obviously that has nothing to do with taking out rocket sites.

Pure war crime against innocents.

Israel has used up all its sympathy creds with most people now.

.

Edited January 24, 2015 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

Thats quite a claim. Do elucidate.

.

Already documented here and in other threads. Apparently the only people worth the ICC's time are always in Africa.

[jacee]

Already documented here and in other threads. Apparently the only people worth the ICC's time are always in Africa.

Link?

.

[bush_cheney2004]

Link?

.

Just use what America has given you for free...Google...or Bing. Search on "ICC Hague Racist Africa". You're welcome.

[jbg]

And since Israel cannot govern itself and continuously commits crimes and murdering people, then what? Kind of like those African countries who commit atrocities. What do you say? You're okay with terrorist attacks? How about getting Palestine into ICC?

Israel governs itself quite well. And survives as a vibrant Jewish state despite your obvious wishes.

Congratulations. Yet another of a drumbeat of anti-Jewish threads.

[Big Guy]

So what is wrong with people being anti-Jewish? There are many people who are anti-Christian, anti-Protestant, certainly anti-Muslim from what we see here, anti-Sikhism, anti-Hinduism and anti-anything.

What is so special about being anti-Jewish? Judaism is ranked only 12 in the world by number of believers.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Big Guy

[Wilber]

So what is wrong with people being anti-Jewish? There are many people who are anti-Christian, anti-Protestant, certainly anti-Muslim from what we see here, anti-Sikhism, anti-Hinduism and anti-anything.

What is so special about being anti-Jewish? Judaism is ranked only 12 in the world by number of believers.

See the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

[PrimeNumber]

See the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

You can be against a religion without wanting to kill it's followers.

I for one am anti-abrahamic religions. That does not mean I want people following those religions to die. I want to convert them, help them see the light of logic. If they do not denounce their religion, so be it that is their right. But I am still against it all the same. People use anti-semetism as a shield to keep Judaism from being criticized when in fact anti-semeitism has an entirely different meaning, it's sad really. But much like those followers of Islam in Saskatoon who recently said Islam cannot be criticized, they are all wrong. All religions should be criticized every single waking second of every single day until the very last follower of those religions stops following them. But when that criticism turns into to prejudice or hatred against that religion, that is where the problem arises. There is a difference between free speech and hate speech, please for the love of no god recognize it.

[marcus]

Congratulations. Yet another of a drumbeat of anti-Jewish threads.

Flashing the anti-semite card doesn't have the same weight it once had. It's the kind of response given by someone who is unable to disprove that Israel is a criminal nation which needs to be held accountable.

People are tired of being muzzled within a controlled narrative. The media is coming around to it too, mostly due to the internet and the flow of information. The mainstream media is getting a lot more competition and so they are feeling the pressure to be a little more informative when it comes to things that matter, as opposed to the watered down version. People don't have the stomach and the patience anymore. Especially not when you have one of the most arrogant and crass prime ministers and the like-minded he keeps around him, piloting Israel and its dark side right into the iceberg.

When Morning Joe has a moment of clarity on Israel and shares it on air, you know things have changed:

CLICK THIS LINK TO SEE VIDEO

Edited February 23, 2016 by Michael Hardner
ADDED VIDEO LINK

[Bonam]

So what is wrong with people being anti-Jewish? There are many people who are anti-Christian, anti-Protestant, certainly anti-Muslim from what we see here, anti-Sikhism, anti-Hinduism and anti-anything.

What is so special about being anti-Jewish? Judaism is ranked only 12 in the world by number of believers.

Like most English speakers, you don't understand what it actually means to be a Jew, or to be "anti-Jewish". Those who hate Jews hate them just as much for their racial/ethnic identify, as they do for their religious identity. Nazis didn't offer Jews the option of converting, they didn't care one iota whether a Jew followed Judaism or not, no they cared about their Jewish ethnic origin. One can easily be an atheist Jew, in fact atheist/agnostic Jews comprise one of the largest group of Jews worldwide, because Jewishness is very much an ethnic identity as well.

So what is wrong with being anti-Jewish? The same thing that is wrong with being anti-Black, or anti-Arab, or anti-Chinese... it is a form of racism, plain and simple.

People who hate Jews (are "anti-Jewish") don't give a damn about Judaism, it's not the religion of Judaism that they hate, but the people that they identify as Jews.

Bash Judaism all you want, it's just a religion like any other. You can point out how it's a dumb set of superstitions just like Christianity and Islam. But when you bash Jews, you are bashing them as people, for their identity as someone of Jewish descent, not for their religion. Jewishness and Judaism are two separate, though historically related, concepts. Being a Jew is to being a follower of Judaism as being an Arab is to being a follower of Islam, or as being European is to being a follower of Christianity. Related... but far from the same thing.

English, unfortunately, only has one word for Jew... whether talking about their religious or their ethnic identity. Arab and Muslim... White and Christian... but Jew and Jew. There's a word missing there. Many languages that evolved in nations with a larger historical Jewish presence (and in many cases a history of forced conversions of Jews to Christianity) have two words to make the distinction, and hence their speakers don't experience the same confusion about what being a Jew is as do English speakers.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Bonam

[GostHacked]

Boman. Religion does not equal race, I don't think it cannot be considered a form of racism.

[Big Guy]

No Bonam - Not clear at all. I have spent time in Northern Ireland as a Catholic. I have experienced and seen the results of hate based on religion. Judaism is nothing special in that degree. People killed and hated Catholics just as people hated and killed Jews.

As to reference to the Holocaust, it was a terrible example of ethnic cleansing but there have been other ethnic cleansing atrocities of the past that have had more victims but have certainly not garnered nearly the publicity. That Armenian incident was also an atrocity with more victims.

I believe in equality but suggest that every group thinks they are special and deserve special treatment. I do not see prejudiced anti-Jewish sentiments as any more repugnant than anti-Muslim or anti-Catholic or anti anything.

When you bash Catholics, you bash a belief system and a long history of oppression et al.

Finally, "Being a Jew is to be a follower of Judaism as being an Arab is to being a follower of Islam, or as being European is to being a follower of Christianity. Related... but far from the same thing."

That is a very interesting point of view probably shared by most Jews but I submit not for believers in other religions. To compare the essence of being a Jew or being a Catholic or being a Muslim is a very subjective and one must be suspect as to the belief of the evaluator. While I respect your point of view I reject your suggestion.

I see no difference in respecting the beliefs of Jews, Catholics, Sikhs, Muslims et al and treating them all with the same respect.

I do not see being Jewish as something special.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Big Guy

[Bonam]

While I respect your point of view I reject your suggestion.

I see. So when a Jew tells you why he/she considers himself/herself a Jew, and what it means to them, you reject the idea and tell them... no, that's not what being a Jew is. Got it.

Boman. Religion does not equal race, I don't think it cannot be considered a form of racism.

Yeah, you completely missed the point of the post. Try reading it again.

[Big Guy]

To Bonam - It appears I did not make myself clear. When a Jew or Christian or Sikh or Muslim or ... tell me what it means to them I respect their point of view - they have that right. But I do not accept the assertion that any of them are "special" and therefore require special treatment from the world community is what I reject. A Jew can consider himself/herself as whatever they choose - that is their right but to expect the rest of the world, or other religions, to consider them special with special rights and consideration is also what I reject.

Every believer of any religion trusts that their faith is the "true" one. Other religions have inaccuracies and faults. If that was not the belief, then they would not maintain the faith in their faith but switch to another or reject religions completely.

For me, to try to tell a Jew what he is would be arrogant and insensitive. It would be the same as telling a Muslim or Catholic what he/she is. Faith is a very private affair between a person and their conscience. I would not tell anybody who they are but when someone tries to tell me that they are special and should be treated special because of their faith then I say an emphatic NO!

Edited January 28, 2015 by Big Guy

[Rue]

Lol what is wrong with being anti Jewish Big Guy asks.

One can only assume from such a question he either does not understand the difference between the exercise of objectively critiquing the religion of Judaism with having a preconceived discriminatory attitudes about Jews simply because the thinks they are Jews.

Lol.

I love it.

A Rue Fable

One day a man walking in a village came upon a group of nuns heading to church.

"Hello sisters" he said.

They kept their heads down and kept walking.

When they did not answer he screamed out:

"You are all rude! How can you call yourselves Christians!"

As he was walking further down the street he came upon a Priest and said;

"I just came upon a bunch of very rude nuns who ignored me when I said hello, they just kept walkin and ignored me!"

" Well...." said the Priest, " it may not be they were rude " and then he pointed at the man's groin causing him to look down and notice his fly had broken and his pee pee was hanging out.

moral of Rue's story:

those who see nothing wrong with leaping to conclusions about others, are unaware of their own shortcomings

or

if you show your shortcomings to others, don't be surprised when they call you small headed

Maybe he can understand the parable. I won't hold my breath. Its more then one sentence.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Rue

[guyser]

moral of Rue's story:

True Moral : Dont quit your day job.

[Bonam]

To Bonam - It appears I did not make myself clear. When a Jew or Christian or Sikh or Muslim or ... tell me what it means to them I respect their point of view - they have that right. But I do not accept the assertion that any of them are "special" and therefore require special treatment from the world community is what I reject. A Jew can consider himself/herself as whatever they choose - that is their right but to expect the rest of the world, or other religions, to consider them special with special rights and consideration is also what I reject.

Every believer of any religion trusts that their faith is the "true" one. Other religions have inaccuracies and faults. If that was not the belief, then they would not maintain the faith in their faith but switch to another or reject religions completely.

For me, to try to tell a Jew what he is would be arrogant and insensitive. It would be the same as telling a Muslim or Catholic what he/she is. Faith is a very private affair between a person and their conscience. I would not tell anybody who they are but when someone tries to tell me that they are special and should be treated special because of their faith then I say an emphatic NO!

You're still 100% missing the point. But whatever, I tried.

[Rue]

Big Guy you stated:

"Every believer of any religion trusts that their faith is the "true" one."

That is a ridiculous generalization. Not every believer of any religion trusts their faith is the true one. That is you making a sweeping generalization. Ist what you do, assume and make sweeping generalizations about what people think.

More to the point, Judaism as a religion does not and has never defined itself as the "true" one or "divine" or "true". In fact Judaism defines humans as necessaril flawed and defective and only God as "true". It says the exact opposite. It says no religion is better than any other because all humans are equally as flawed. You have no clue what Judaism stands for but you continue to spew out generalizations and assumptions as if you do.

It is Islam and Christianity that have references to their religions being the "true" ones, not Judaism or for that matter many other religions. Hinduism does not define itself as true or untrue. Jains do not do that. Neither do Bahaiis and neither do aboriginal peoples of North America or certain animistic traditions followed by people in Africa and Asia. Wiccans do not define themselves that way either.

Stop making ridiculous false generalizations about generalizations about what people think even when they are of a particular religious group. You have no clue how they follow their religion unless you ask them.

Big Guy, you stated:

"For me, to try to tell a Jew what he is would be arrogant and insensitive."

That's interesting because you have no problem making sweeping statements what we believe as demonstrated in the above comment I challenged from you.

You also again tell Jews what we are after you stated the above. To defend your comment "what is wrong with being anti Jewish, you used this justification:

"I would not tell anybody who they are but when someone tries to tell me that they are special and should be treated special because of their faith then I say an emphatic NO!"

So there it is. Its o.k. to be anti Jewish according to you because we Jews think we are special and should be treated special because of our faith.

Nothing in our religion or beliefs calls for that or states that.

Nothing in our collective values calls for that or states that.

Of course what you are doing is to try rationalize being anti Jewish for those Jews who think they have a right to a state only you don't know how to seperate the actual beleifs of Judaism from the actual precepts of Zionism and mistate them both but interchange them again showing a classic example of how people like you think you criticize Zionism then criticize Judaism thinking Zionism is Judaism or promotes a type of Judaism.

Of course you just won't go read and find out what either are. You prefer to come on this board not understanding either and continuing to make ridiculous mistatements about both flowing from your ignorance as to the 2.

Zionism has never defined Jews as special or having better rights than others. The belief that Jews have a right to a state is no different than Muslims believe they have a right to Sharia law states or Christians believe they have the right to Christian states such as the Vatican, Italy or the United KIngdom. Its not about being special, but equal.

Nothing in Zionism defines Jews superior to anyone else. In fact this is specifically why Muslim and Christian Israelis have the same legal rights as Jews in Israel and this is why they are allowed to follow their own religious laws in regards to family law, wills, estates. This is precisely why They have all the rights of Jews in Israel unlike in Sharia law nations where Jews because of Muslim sharia law are defined as inferiors and do NOT have the same rights.

So you are absolutely and utterling wrong about Zionism. It asks for nothing other peoples don't have and it does not define Jews as superior to anyone, just equal.

As for your reference to Jews thinking we are special. There are many people who make no effort to understand or find out what Judaism is who believe our referring to ourselves as the chosen people means we think we are special or superior to others. They also think it is why Zionism started, that we believe God promised us Israel and no one else.

To start with being chosen never meant we were special. It means in our beliefs, we follow a story that said if we chose to remain a collective God would rememebr us, if we did not remain a collective, he could not remember us. Chosen is not the word we used. Its a faulty retranslation of a covenant we entered into with God where in exchange for us promising to remember God through a collective, he in turn would remember us collectively as well.

It was a symbolic allegory written at a time when Jews were not unified and faced with extinction to encourage them to remain unified.

Nothing in it defined Jews as preferred by God to anyone else. That is a false myth created by anti semites. It was never a precept in Judaism but it is continually falsely repeated as a precept of both Judaism and Zionism.

It is repeated over and over on this board precisely because people like you refuse to go find out what Judaism is or Zionism is. You in fact come on the board and are proud to say you won't read more than a sentence. You in fact admit you will refuse to make any effort to educate yourself and instead keep returning to this board mistating Zionism and Judaism.

Zionism was never religious. ZIonism never used the Bible or the religion of Judaism to create its precepts. It defined Jews not as followers of Judaism, but as a people descended from the Hebrews of Israel who had been persecuted worldwide simply because of their Jewish ancestry.

Jew in that sense was defined as a nationality not a religious identity.

It was only in the 70's when Jews from New York moved to the West Bank and created a new strain of religious Zionism referring to the former Judea and Somaria which are now Israel, Jordan, the West Babk and portions of Syria and Lebanon as belong to the new state of Israel.

Their leader Myer Kahane formed the Kache Party and he in fact was imprisoned in Israel by the Israeli government for extremist views.

There are anywhere from 2 thousand to 120 thousand Jews in Israel who might share some or all of these beliefs. They are less than 1% of the country. The vast majority of Israelis are not religious at all and best described as existentialist-they live in the moment fighting off terrorists and the ignorance of people like you who incorrectly define them, their beliefs and in fact do tell them as you did in your last response who and what they are.

You Big Guy stereotyep we Jews and our beliefs and identity in the name of allegedly questioning Israel's existence. That is what you do.

Right Big Guy. So now the statement "what's wrong with being anti Jewish", in fact refers to you challenging anyone who calls themselves special and since Jews

[Big Guy]

If as a Jew you do not believe that it is the "true" religion then I suggest that you find the one that is and switch to that one. Maybe you want to become a Catholic. I would suggest the same to any poster who does not feel that their religion is the "true" religion.

I had time to-day to read the first and last paragraphs of your presentation. You still don't get it. You (and Bonam) appear to believe that Jews are "special", should be treated "specially" and should be treated differently from other religions.

Well guess what. You are wrong. I believe that Christianity in the form of the Catholic faith is the "true" religion. So there. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. If I thought that Judaism was more "true" then I would become a Jew. I don't and have no intention of becoming a Jew.

I find you presentations not only over the top but a waste of time to read. I find your attitude and disjointed persistence irritating but since I have some Jewish friends who are quite normal, intelligent and nice people, I am able to separate my irritation for you from irritation for all Jews. They will remain my friends and you will probably remain an irritant which I will try to avoid.

Thank goodness that you speak only for Rue and not the rest of the Jewish people. I suggest that the informed ones would be (and area) embarrassed by your attempt to portray Jews in such a negative light - unless you are a Palestinian attempting to undermine the credibility of Judaism. If you are then you are doing a great job.

[Bonam]

I had time to-day to read the first and last paragraphs of your presentation. You still don't get it. You (and Bonam) appear to believe that Jews are "special", should be treated "specially" and should be treated differently from other religions.

At no point did I say anything even close to that. You are either purposefully misrepresenting my post or have serious reading comprehension issues. I suggest you try harder if you are interested in any kind of serious debate on this topic.

[PrimeNumber]

People who hate Jews (are "anti-Jewish") don't give a damn about Judaism, it's not the religion of Judaism that they hate, but the people that they identify as Jews.

English, unfortunately, only has one word for Jew... whether talking about their religious or their ethnic identity.

How can you honestly say that everyone who is anti-jewish is not against the religion rather than the ethnic group. We do have a word for being being the ethnic group of Jews, it's called anti-semetism. There is a word however for just the religion, it is Judaism. I suppose we can start saying anti-judaism. If that clears things up for you.

[Big Guy]

Well Bonam, since I am still 100% missing the point and have serious reading comprehension issues I suggest you write off my commentary as mistaken (perhaps purposefully so) and obviously not worth considering. Thank you for your suggestion to try harder but am not sure to try harder at what? I am very comfortable with my knowledge in this subject area and will gladly debate seriously or otherwise anybody with (what I consider to be) an objective, informed and researched opinion.

I will continue to state my views on any issue and comment on any other posters submissions which I feel are worth a comment. I suggest that you do the same. If you feel that you are wasting your time addressing anything that I post then please ignore it accordingly. I will be the worse and less informed for you taking that route but time is precious, not to be wasted and I will understand.

[Bonam]

Well Bonam, since I am still 100% missing the point and have serious reading comprehension issues I suggest you write off my commentary as mistaken (perhaps purposefully so) and obviously not worth considering. Thank you for your suggestion to try harder but am not sure to try harder at what? I am very comfortable with my knowledge in this subject area and will gladly debate seriously or otherwise anybody with (what I consider to be) an objective, informed and researched opinion.

One should always be seeking to increase their knowledge on subjects that they are interested in, rather than just being "comfortable with their knowledge".

[Rue]

Big guy in post 37 you stated there were more victims in the massacre of Armenians then there were in the holocaust. First off your comment was patently wrong. Its what you do, throw out false statements as facts. It also showed another tactic you engage in, trying to degrade the holocaust or trivialize it by comparing it to another genocide and then suggest its an inferior one.

Any genocide is equally as morally repugnant. When Jews, Armenians,Ukrainians, talk of our genocides, we respect each other. We don't engage in pissing contests to measure the number of dead and then suggest from that the number of dead makes one genocide worse than the other.

You do though because in your twisted attempt to justify being anti Jewish, you now argue that the holocaust is not special-what that has to do with Judaism and your original accusation that Jews believe they are special is anyone's guess. One can only conclude your need to trivialize the holocaust is an attempt to suggest Jew use the holocaust to be special and that is why you feel justified in being anti Jewish.

That Big Guy speaks for itself. It shows an ignorance for the holocaust, ignorance for other genocides, this need of you to degrade the holocaust by comparing it to other genocides in some bizarre comparison as to whose is more important, and then link the suffering of Jews in the holocaust to some equally as bizarre notion you think it makes Jews feel they are special.

The more you write the more your true agenda comes out and that is to refer to the holocaust to suggest Jews think they are special. Then you have the audacity to tell me my responses are disjointed. You start off with the sweeping statement you are anti Jewish, then try suggest you are anti Jews because our religion tells us we are special, then when pointed out the religion does not say that, flp to the holocaust as the reason Jews think they are special and why you hate them.

Yes and my posts are disjointed because I follow your ramblings, and try point out your flipping and flopping and why your flips and flips and attempts to clarify what you said and what you meant make no sense.

Got it.

[Rue]

Now in Big Guy's latest response to me, he spent half the response making personal attacks against me and in fact disparaging me for being a Jew and stating he knows the difference between other Jews and me and poses his insult to suggest I am an unreasonable Jew. He attacks me for being a Jew and sets me up as a negative Jew as opposed to a positive Jew. The positive Jew, the good Jew is presumably the ones he calls his friends.

Now that is interesting because in his personal attack he puts me down for the kind of Jew I am, this coming from someone who posted in thread no.39 and I quote; "For me to tell a Jew what he is would be arrogant and insensitive". His response to me clearly shows he will not only tell me what kind of Jew I am but compare me to other Jews. He attacks my being a Jew, compares it to other Jews and demonstrates he is not debating the topic or even the responses I challenged, but feels he can make personal attacks against me for the kind of Jew I am, a blatant example of the kind of exercise I have been

challenging-the need to attack Jews under the pretense of discussing issues. His personal attack was uncalled for and demonstrates a need to belittle what he thinks of me simply because I am a Jew and I am glad it is there for all to see and read.