French Magazine Attacked by Terrorists

[Rue]

To MichaelH:

1-I have never referred to Muslims as Nazis.

I have never equated Muslims to any scourge.

I am not equating any religions-you asked me to and I said it was pointless.

At no time have I stated Muslims need to be treated differently.

Provide the statements where you think I said any of the above please..

[Rue]

Guyser the continued tactic of intervening to bait me and draw attention to yourself from me is worn out.

Been there done that. Just refrain from responding to me. Its far better than lowering yourself to duhs and ums and trying to pass that off as debate.

You and Jacee can call me all the names you want, try get personal with the insults, dismiss what I say as too long or diatribes because you think that name calling covers your lack of ability to respond-knock yourself out, but you are wasting your time not mine.

[Michael Hardner]

1-I have never referred to Muslims as Nazis.

''''''''''''''''

Your quote about my comments on Islam:

I also think you sound no different than many people in Europe did when they denied the extent and nature of the agndae of Hitler and Stalin and now with Putin.

I personally believe you are engaging in a classic example of denial when it comes to Muslim extremism and the amount of turmoil that may have to come before Islamic society can evolve pass its present tense and the destruction it has the potential to cause including chemical and nuclear attacks.

I think you are dangerously naïve and smug about Muslim extremism and the instability in the Muslim world and what it will take to evolve past it.

So you see, I think we have to just differ on what you were saying here. If you were trying to say something different, then be more careful with your words in the future and I (and presumingly others) won't misinterpret your intentions.

[Rue]

Mr. Harder, first off speak for yourself. Please do not turn yourself into a plural ("and presumably others") when addressing me.

Secondly, you are not the first nor will you be the last to make allegations as to what I said, then not be able to provide the words you claimed I said.

Telling me to be more careful as to what I write was arrogant, rude and illogical. I can't control how you will read into my words things I did not write. I am not psychic.

If you add in a meaning I did not write, I have the right to challenge it. Don't tell me I have to be psychic, predict how you will misinterpret what I said by telling me to be more careful-you in fact are the one that must be more careful ,not I.

Please do not tell me what I think without asking. Please do not suggest I wrote things when I did not. You be more careful.

[Michael Hardner]

Please do not suggest I wrote things when I did not.

Sorry, but if you write things then there are obvious interpretations. You don't seem to understand communication, which means "we" (that is, you and I) rally can't continue until you acknowledge that communication is a two-way interaction. There really isn't much point.

[Rue]

Knock it off M.H. What is an "obvious interpretation" to you, is your inference, your interpretation. Take ownership of it. Don't throw it back on me with the word "obvious" to try justify your falsely attributing positions or opinions to me I never stated.

You got called out, you can't produce the opinions you claimed I stated, move on.

Where do you get off condescending to me with a lecture that I do not understand how to communicate to deflect on what yougot caught doing. Take responsibility for what you did.

You might also want to practice what you preach.

You now lecture me that communication is a two way interaction when your very words in response to me that you are trying to justify engaging in one way interpretation of what I said-your way.

Go on finish this charade.

Since you now pose as the communication expert re-write what I said so you would not have ""obviously" given it the meaning you did.

Please Professor of Communications re-write what I said so it would not have lent itself to your false attributions.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

Knock it off M.H. What is an "obvious interpretation" to you, is your inference, your interpretation.

Really ? So when you compare my reaction to those people who didn't react properly to Stalin and Hitler, you're not comparing Islam to those things ?

Take ownership of it.

Good advice.

Move on and don't play with me.

Also good advice. Let's do that.

[WIP]

Seems to me that the Muslim-baiting fascists on these threads focus laser-like on anti-Jewish acts, including terrorism, perpetrated by Muslim suspects, but turn a blind eye to the fact that the growing Nazi white nationalist right wing movements across Europe don't consider Jews to be part of the white man's club...as most of the far right does on this side of the Atlantic. So, while a few Jewish voices here march in lockstep with the antiIslamic crusade, on the other side of the world, the far right doesn't distinguish between Jew nor Muslim! Like they say, be careful who you choose for friends, especially when you make alliances framed around mutual hatred of a third party! The latest from France 24:

Some 300 tombs defaced at French Jewish cemetery

https://twitter.com/France24_en/status/567065463796940800/photo/1

[msj]

Yeah, because some ignorant jerks defacing property is the same thing as the execution of people because they did a little drawing.

I'm sure pointing this out somehow also makes me a "Muslim-baiting fascist."

[Bonam]

Seems to me that the Muslim-baiting fascists on these threads focus laser-like on anti-Jewish acts, including terrorism, perpetrated by Muslim suspects, but turn a blind eye to the fact that the growing Nazi white nationalist right wing movements across Europe don't consider Jews to be part of the white man's club...as most of the far right does on this side of the Atlantic. So, while a few Jewish voices here march in lockstep with the antiIslamic crusade, on the other side of the world, the far right doesn't distinguish between Jew nor Muslim! Like they say, be careful who you choose for friends, especially when you make alliances framed around mutual hatred of a third party!

Not much news there. Antisemitism has always been and continues to be rife in Europe. It is only exacerbated by bringing in lots of Muslims, many of which also hate Jews. Few if any Jews "march in lockstep" with "Nazi white nationalist right wing movements". There might be a couple, like the token Jews that Ahmadinejad got to present at his holocaust denial exhibition.

[Big Guy]

The term Anti-Semitism keeps cropping up. I assume that it means that these people are against Jews.

Why are they against Jews?

Are they angry with what Israel is doing?

Are they jealous of the religion?

Are they jealous of their culture?

Are they ...?

What makes a person become an anti-Semite?

[Bonam]

The term Anti-Semitism keeps cropping up. I assume that it means that these people are against Jews.

Why are they against Jews?

Are they angry with what Israel is doing?

Are they jealous of the religion?

Are they jealous of their culture?

Are they ...?

What makes a person become an anti-Semite?

Antisemitism was rife in Europe long before Israel existed, and jealousy is an unlikely motive as Jews were generally oppressed and lacked the rights of non-Jews. A common explanation is that European nobles, monarchs, and religious figures used the Jews (an easily identifiable "other") as scapegoats for various social/economic/health problems. Plague? Blame it on the Jews poisoning the wells. Lost a war? Blame it on Jewish traitors. Etc. Over time, this thousands of years of scapegoating and hatred became an integral part of European culture and psyche, culminating in expulsions of Jews in England, pogroms in eastern Europe, and of course the Holocaust. This scapegoating process is similar to how today some leaders of crappy countries (North Korea, Syria, etc) blame everything on scapegoats such as "the West" or "zionists", when the more likely explanation for various problems is their own bad leadership.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Bonam

[jbg]

A common explanation is that European nobles, monarchs, and religious figures used the Jews (an easily identifiable "other") as scapegoats for various social/economic/health problems. Plague? Blame it on the Jews poisoning the wells. Lost a war? Blame it on Jewish traitors. Etc. Over time, this thousands of years of scapegoating and hatred became an integral part of European culture and psyche, culminating in expulsions of Jews in England, pogroms in eastern Europe, and of course the Holocaust. This scapegoating process is similar to how today some leaders of crappy countries (North Korea, Syria, etc) blame everything on scapegoats such as "the West" or "zionists", when the more likely explanation for various problems is their own bad leadership.

I generally agree. One quibble. The nobility actually brought the Jews in for much needed capital and entrepreneurial skills and activities. The borrowers then fell out of love with the creditors, and populists also oppressed by the nobility did the "Jew-blaming." Edited February 17, 2015 by jbg

[Guest]

The term Anti-Semitism keeps cropping up. I assume that it means that these people are against Jews.

Why are they against Jews?

Are they angry with what Israel is doing?

Are they jealous of the religion?

Are they jealous of their culture?

Are they ...?

What makes a person become an anti-Semite?

I suppose they are told to. Like those Germans who didn't know they had anything against the Jews until Hitler told them they did.

[Wilber]

I generally agree. One quibble. The nobility actually brought the Jews in for much needed capital and entrepreneurial skills and activities. The borrowers then fell out of love with the creditors, and populists also oppressed by the nobility did the "Jew-blaming."

Although I'm not sure that was antisemitism. Phillip the Fair did the same thing to the Templars.

[Rue]

So when you compare my reaction to those people who didn't react properly to Stalin and Hitler, you're not comparing Islam to those things ?

Of course not. I was talking about YOUR reaction to Muslim extremism not Muslim people.

I have never called Muslims Stalinists or Nazis. I do not have an issue with Muslims. They are not the issue. Muslim extremism as expressed by terrorists I have a problem with and I went out of my way to differentiate the two in my responses.

I do find Muslim extremism as problematic to the world today as Stalinism and Nazism was once to the world when at their time in history people tried to appease both their leaders and their views as Obama and certain people do today with Muslim extremists.

In fact I do not find your position any different then the idiot (Neville CHamberlain) who came back from Berlin stating he had peace in his time holding up a wrinkled piece of paper. I think it is idiotic to think one cn negotiate with and find reason with terrorists the same way I think it was idiotic to think one could sit down and engage in rational discourse with Hitler, Stalin, Sadam Hussein, or the leaders of ISIL, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Quaeda.

As I said you go and talk peace with them and see how long you last before they light you on fire.

One can criticize Stalinism and Nazism and not be criticizing Germans or Russians. One can criticize Muslim extremism without about being anti Muslim. Don;t dictate to me if I am against Muslim extremism it makes me anti Muslim. It does not.

One can as I did challenge you and your reactions without being anti Muslim.

I believe extremism whether it be Stalin's version of it, Hitler's version of it, Charlie ISIL's version of it, Hamas' version of it, Al Quaeda's version of it, Al Asqa Martyr Brigades' version if it,ridicule rational negotiation and so it would illogical to negotiate with any of them for that reason.

Next you will tell me to sit down with Charlie Manson and negotiate with him about life, because of I do not, it makes me anti human or anti Californian or anti white, or anti bearded people.

Spare me the b.s. smeers.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Yep, one can criticize Israel and not be anti-jew. Or does it work that way?

[Argus]

Seems to me that the Muslim-baiting fascists on these threads

Would you care to identify these 'Muslim bating fascists"? I haven't seen any thus far. By the way, how can you be a "Muslim baiter" when there are no Muslims here to bait?

So, while a few Jewish voices here march in lockstep with the antiIslamic crusade, on the other side of the world, the far right doesn't distinguish between Jew nor Muslim! Like they say, be careful who you choose for friends, especially when you make alliances framed around mutual hatred of a third party! The latest from France 24:

The tombs were destroyed by 5 teenagers, who, let's face it, are more likely to be Muslims than white supremacists. My understanding, from reading a number of articles on the rise of anti-antisemitism in Europe is that this is attributed to Muslims, not to 'white supremacists', though of course I would be interested in information you had to the contrary.

[Michael Hardner]

Spare me the b.s. smeers.

You have said:

"[before] Islamic society can evolve pass its present tense and the destruction it has the potential to cause including chemical and nuclear attacks."

Smeers [sic] aren't what this is. I'm quoting you here. If you care to retract it or say you will choose your words more carefully I can accept that. You're not condemning terrorists here, you're condemning a people. If you care about my words, then you should care about yours too IMO.

[guyser]

Guyser the continued tactic of intervening to bait me and draw attention to yourself from me is worn out.

Pretty sure anyone can see that for what it is, pointless bs from rue. I seek attention with 50 words or less, but youre long winded fanatical off base ten page prose isnt? My my.

Just refrain from responding to me.

No.

Actually, maybe, if you stop BSing folks.

I might say the same if someone who kept holding my feet to the truth started to piss me off.

Your feet should have burned off by now, you keep on putting words in others mouths, and you deny when you say things

and get caught out. Post 742 ring a bell ? Probably not, you could see a F'ing forest if it was right in front of you.

Its far better than lowering yourself to duhs and ums

A stupid post, or a post that contradicts your ealrier statements deserve no less. A giant 'duh' . You have earned it .

You and Jacee can call me all the names you want,

Good thing we arent. And heres another example of your lying bullshit.

try get personal with the insults, dismiss what I say as too long or diatribes because you think that name calling covers your lack of ability to respond-knock yourself out, but you are wasting your time not mine.

Naw, most just are sick of your idiocy.

Rue; NO

Othr: Why NO ?

Rue: I Never said No.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Guyser2

[Rue]

Gusyer you again come on this board with nothing to contribue to the thread but to engage in a personal attack.

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

Stop the personal attacks. Rue is right.

I do not care what angle any one of you takes on this discussion. The next person who posts a whiff of a personal attack or a hint of playing the player instead of playing the ball will take a time out.

If you need help, here is a challenge: Post in such a way that ANYBODY reading your contribution can be expected to intelligently understand what you have to say without having to know the identity of ANY PERSON who is part of the discussion.

Ch. A.

[Rue]

You have said:

"[before] Islamic society can evolve pass its present tense and the destruction it has the potential to cause including chemical and nuclear attacks."

Smeers [sic] aren't what this is. I'm quoting you here. If you care to retract it or say you will choose your words more carefully I can accept that. You're not condemning terrorists here, you're condemning a people. If you care about my words, then you should care about yours too IMO.

No I am not condemning people. I am condemning social values read=stop misquoting, stop misrepresenting.

Before Islamic society can evolve past its present situation where it is dominated by Muslim extremists and corupt leaders it most certainly has the ability to cause war including chemical and nuclear attacks. Countries such as Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and even countries such as Senegal, Mali, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain,, are gripped with internal tensions. Those are all part of an Islamic society and not all their leaders are terrorists but could easily get into protracted wars as I stated on religious grounds because of the lack of seperation between religion and state policy.

I criticize Islamic Society for failing to get under control not just its extremists but its corupt regimes, its tyranical regimes.I have not stated any one Muslim is to blame nor have I suggested any Muslim is a Nazi, Stalinist or terrorist.

I am criticizing the social vision of Islamic society as interpreted by some of its religious and government leaders and structures.

Islamic society consists of states that call themselves Sharia law states because they do not seperate their religious values from the state organs and have no independent judiciary-the judiciary and government must promulgate a particular version and vision of Islamic beliefs.

These states call themselves Sharia law states and so I argue that lack of seperation prevents political evolution to democratic states.

The monopoly of Islamic beliefs on their laws, state organs and judiciary prevent democratic institutions such as a judicial court system seperate from the government precisely because of Sharia law.

Islamic society needs to evolve past an 80% illiteracy level, to democatic institutions, to seperating religion from state.

MH you have tried now several times to label me as hating Muslims. I am clear as to what I criticize and would thank you to refrain from misrepresenting my comments. I can and will criticize Islamic society and Islam or Islamic governments for the reasons I stated and it does not mean I hate Muslims. Enough with the attempts to personally denigrate me as hating Muslims.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Rue

[WIP]

Not much news there. Antisemitism has always been and continues to be rife in Europe. It is only exacerbated by bringing in lots of Muslims, many of which also hate Jews. Few if any Jews "march in lockstep" with "Nazi white nationalist right wing movements". There might be a couple, like the token Jews that Ahmadinejad got to present at his holocaust denial exhibition.

The right wing in Europe never saw anything to gain by cozying up to Israel or adding Jews to their fold. Maybe it was the legacy of the holocaust and the lingering Euro-fascist fondness for Hitler and Mussolini, or evangelical Christian Zionism never established a following in Europe, like it did in America.

In Iran, the Ayatollahs' favourite Jews are the extreme orthodox Jewish literalists who opposed the Zionist Movement from the beginning, because the Messiah was supposed to arrive and lead all the Jews back to Israel......something to do with interfering with divine providence.

It's only over here, where right wing Jews consider themselves as part of the white majority, and despise all the things that Christian rightwingers hate also....so they are allied in their mutual hatreds!

I mentioned before that the KKK and John Birch Society were similarly anti-Jewish in America. But the larger, mainstream American rightwing is heavily influenced by the Christian Zionists, who want an insanely beligerent and aggressive Israel....so they'll blow up sooner during Armageddon presumably! But, top Israeli officials, including Bibi himself, still court the support of these dangerous allies for their own purposes. And in the U.S., the loudest Jewish voices are the likes of the AIPAC Lobby and their media mouthpieces. They may not represent the majority of American Jews (according to even the latest polling data), but they have the most money and quick access to rightwing media...which they largely helped to get started 30 years ago anyway.

[guyser]

Folks,

Stop the personal attacks. Rue is right.

oh.... k...

I do not care what angle any one of you takes on this discussion.

You say that , then in the next breath contradict that. Edited February 18, 2015 by Guyser2