Proportional Representation Discussion

[eyeball]

On 4/3/2019 at 10:58 PM, August1991 said:

1. Imagine an election in which, among millions, one vote changed the result. To be honest, in elections among several thousand, my single vote has never changed the result. Whether FPTP or PR, in representative democracy, a single vote does not change the result.

2. True, in a market. Not in voting - whatever the scheme.

That's just not arithmetically true.  Of course one vote can tip the balance but in a secret ballot you simply can't know if it was your vote that tipped it is all.  Its not as meaningless as you portray it and I suspect you like every other person who voted for a winner that won due to one vote would feel they did in fact make a difference.

Of course schemes are subject to schemers so I suppose results can be tipped one way or another but that's a different topic.

[Queenmandy85]

46 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That's just not arithmetically true.  Of course one vote can tip the balance but in a secret ballot you simply can't know if it was your vote that tipped it is all.  Its not as meaningless as you portray it and I suspect you like every other person who voted for a winner that won due to one vote would feel they did in fact make a difference.

Of course schemes are subject to schemers so I suppose results can be tipped one way or another but that's a different topic.

In 1972, Bob Stanfield lost by about 100 votes. That is, if 100 voters in select ridings where the vote was extremely close, voted PC rather than someone else,  Premier Stanfield would have become Prime Minister, defeating Trudeau. 

[Queenmandy85]

Rather than PR, we should have run-off elections in ridings where the leading candidate does not have a majority.

[WestCanMan]

9 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

When you come to hate each other, it doesn't matter how you count the votes.

We have a hyper-partisan media here that's 100% behind a divisive, borderline fascist, Prime Minister. This country is toast.

[Dougie93]

59 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

We have a hyper-partisan media here that's 100% behind a divisive, borderline fascist, Prime Minister. This country is toast.

That's right.

None the less, there are multiple countries within the Confederation which will be just fine without Confederation.

Just as Australia, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea are just fine not being in a federation.

There's no requirement for this shotgun marriage anymore, if there ever was.

The Canada's were founded on 13 September 1759 not 1 July 1867, British North America and Canadian Confederation are not the same thing.

[Dougie93]

The only reason for this shotgun marriage imposed in 1867 was that they feared the Americans were going to invade.

At this point, it's moot either way, because Canada is not defending from an American invasion, so Confederation isn't even upholding its purpose anymore.

Confederation, to wit Canada, is now a burden not a boon. 

There is no national interest, quite the opposite, the interests of the east and west are in conflict.

The east is oppressing the west, the east is literally waging war against the west.

At the same time Quebec is pandered to.

This cannot stand.

[Dougie93]

The whole purpose of PR in the Canadian context is as another weapon to be used against the west.

PR is the imperative of the leftists in the east, because it would ensure that the western bloc could never achieve a majority again over the eastern bloc.

[marcus]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

The whole purpose of PR in the Canadian context is as another weapon to be used against the west.

PR is the imperative of the leftists in the east, because it would ensure that the western bloc could never achieve a majority again over the eastern bloc.

It's not healthy to be so paranoid and negative.

PR is a way to make each vote equal.

What do you suggest we should have? Are you even in favour of voting? What makes you happy Dougie? 

[marcus]

On 11/26/2017 at 8:18 PM, Jariax said:

Our 'democracy' is already fairly tenuous.

The party already has too much control over which candidates get accepted. In addition to having unelected people determine who is acceptable and who is not, to run in the nomination process, the party can also ignore the internal election, and simply appoint someone to run in the riding.

That's an interesting thought.

[Dougie93]

Just now, marcus said:

It's not healthy to be so paranoid and negative.

PR is a way to make each vote equal.

What do you suggest we should have? Are you even in favour of voting? What makes you happy Dougie? 

I'm perfectly happy.

The state of Canadian Confederation is no longer an emotional issue for me, I've become coldly clinical about it now.

The fact that I despise Confederation doesn't ruin my personal happiness anymore than despising the Montreal Canadiens does.

I'm simply stating the obvious truth of things, to include the not at all subtle fact that PR is a sacred cow of the Canadian left, because it boxes the minority conservatives out.

[marcus]

13 hours ago, Rue said:

...then ridings would  not pick their own MP's....been there done that with you experts on reform...you are never happy until someone you vote for has the most seats....since your boy Trudeau won enjoy...you know why he won... 

I have never shown any support for Trudeau, never liked him and I have never voted for him.

[Dougie93]

Bear in mind that I am not opposed to the leftist PR weapon being inflicted on conservatives.

That's just going to incite more resentment and agitation against Confederation.

The leftist progressive tyranny is poison.

Thus bring it on I say, burn baby burn.

[Yzermandius19]

30 minutes ago, marcus said:

It's not healthy to be so paranoid and negative.

PR is a way to make each vote equal.

What do you suggest we should have? Are you even in favour of voting? What makes you happy Dougie? 

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, and reality can be harsh. It's not healthy to be so naive and positive when reality doesn't reflect those assumptions.

PR does not make very vote equal, it invalidates the votes of people in rural ridings in favor of those in urban ridings. You want urban representatives for the rural ridings, because of something as silly as the percentage of vote nationwide. PR is stupid, especially in a country as geographically diverse as Canada, with a small population density such as Canada, with many different interests in different regions that need to represented aside from the elite consensus of the big cities ruling for everyone else.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, and reality can be harsh. PR does not make very vote equal, it invalidates the votes of people in rural ridings in favor of those in urban ridings. You want urban representatives for the rural ridings, because of something as silly as the percentage of vote nationwide.

It is the totalitarianism of the progressives, their need to totally annihilate conservatism in Canada,  which makes it so corrosive to federation itself.

[Yzermandius19]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

It is the totalitarianism of the progressives, their need to totally annihilate conservatism in Canada,  which makes it so corrosive to federation itself.

That's PR's only utility, being corrosive to confederation. But it's only so corrosive because of how terrible of an idea it is.

[Dougie93]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

That's PR's only utility, being corrosive to confederation. But it's only so corrosive because of how terrible of an idea it is.

It's perhaps viable in other jurisdictions, there's no such thing as Australian Quebec, but in a fractured and weak Confederation like Canada, it's a very bad idea if you favor unity.

[Yzermandius19]

9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

It's perhaps viable in other jurisdictions, there's no such thing as Australian Quebec, but in a fractured and weak Confederation like Canada, it's a very bad idea if you favor unity.

It's more viable in geographically small homogeneous countries with a high population density, but even there it still has the same problems, just on a smaller scale that is easier to deal with.

People who idolize such countries as the model for every nation in the rest of the world are being silly by trying to push PR on a geographically huge heterogeneous country with a small population density though.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

It's more viable in geographically small homogeneous countries with a high population density, but even there it still has the same problems, just on a smaller scale that is easier to deal with.

Viable.   Still bad tho.  It's typical of leftist sacred cows, in that it is the rule of a committee.

Nobody is in charge, nobody can get anything done, it's cat herding.   Without FPTP,  you can't get a mandate, it's just a debating club.

Nobody ever said leftists were smart tho. 

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Viable.   Still bad tho.  It's typical of leftist sacred cows, in that it is the rule of a committee.

Nobody is in charge, nobody can get anything done, it's cat herding.   Without FPTP,  you can't get a mandate, it's just a debating club.

Nobody ever said leftists were smart tho. 

Indeed. Especially with multiple parties splitting the vote, cat herding do nothing governments that like to virtue signal how they are superior because they are a debating club that rules by elite consensus, while ignoring the will of the rural population and denying them proper representation because of popular vote percentages.

Rule of a committee for the fail, FPTP is the obvious lesser evil here, the lefties simply want to silence the conservatives by boxing them out with PR, it isn't paranoid if they are out to get you.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Rule of a committee for the fail, FPTP is the obvious lesser evil here, the lefties simply want to silence the conservatives by boxing them out with PR, it isn't paranoid if they are out to get you.

Lefties are simply pathologically self righteous, totally convinced of their utter moral superiority, that they are out to get anybody who dissents from their dogma.

[Dougie93]

I think PR could lead to such a level of leftist obstruction that it could incite civil disorder, rioting in streets.

Imagine how the rule of a committee would be in a crisis, total paralysis, nobody in charge, yet nobody else in the country with the authority to do anything about it.

Cue the Yellow Vests.

[Yzermandius19]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Lefties are simply pathologically self righteous, totally convinced of their utter moral superiority, that they are out to get anybody who dissents from their dogma.

Pathologically self righteous, totally convinced of their utter moral superiority, out to get anybody who dissents from their dogma is only bad when it comes from the christian right to these clowns. Obvious double standard is obvious.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

Pathologically self righteous, totally convinced of their utter moral superiority, out to get anybody who dissents from their dogma is only bad when it comes from the christian right to these clowns. Obvious double standard is obvious.

Oh yes, the leftists are the first to screech hysterically if anything at all is imposed on them, but the first to stomp on others with a sneer and smug dismissal of their pleas.

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Oh yes, the leftists are the first to screech hysterically if anything at all is imposed on them, but the first to stomp on others with a sneer and smug dismissal of their pleas.

Their complete overreaction to the religious right has made them into the very thing they claim to revile so much in their political opposition, they just have zero self awareness and are oblivious to this fact.

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Their complete overreaction to the religious right has made them into the very thing they claim to revile so much in their political opposition, they just have zero self awareness and are oblivious to this fact.

All the better, they are de facto allies against Confederation, and they are so smug that they will never conceive that they could be derailing themselves along the way.