Education Over Expulsion At Dalhousie

[Big Guy]

At the University of Dalhousie, there is a group of about a dozen fourth year male students who created a Facebook page which contained sexually demeaning posts about women and specifically women in the program. Once the faculty learned about it, it shut down the page and deliberated on the appropriate response. Many students assumed that these male students would be expelled and would probably end their careers in Dentistry.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dalhousie-restorative-justice-response-a-cop-out-student-leader-1.2153391

Instead, the University has decided to pursue "restorative justice" for these male students. The process involves face to face meetings between the parties involved. This decision has created controversy where some believe that there should be a more punitive solution while others feel that changing the attitude with face to face discussion will educate the males to the consequences of their posts.

It is refreshing for me to see that some educated people are able to try to make the best of a bad situation by educating the transgressors of the consequences of their actions rather than tossing a dozen University students out of the profession.

[Black Dog]

The consequences being...not much of anything.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Charles Anthony
deleted quote of re-copied Opening Post

[The_Squid]

Restorative justice can have consequences. It doesn't imply that all that happens is a meeting where they are shamed.

I would think in this case, they will come up with a fitting "punishment" within the group that meets. I don't know what that would be.... Often some sort of community service... but if it isn't followed through with, the backup is expulsions.

[cybercoma]

DAL's response is completely unacceptable. These are adult men who have already completed undergraduate degrees and are entering a profession where they have a fiduciary responsibility to their patients. Their actions show an utter disregard for that relationship of trust and what's even more appalling is that they appear to have known about the gravity of the Ghomeshi situation and just didn't care. This abhorrent behaviour has absolutely no place at an institution of higher education and even less so amongst those in positions of trust, such as doctors (in this case dentists). Restorative justice is ludicrous in this case. These men were shown to be completely devoid of the maturity, dignity, and honour to be in positions of trust and as such should be removed from their programs, told to apply again later in life when they've reached the reached the maturity to be the professionals they were supposed to be training to be.

[Big Guy]

I am looking forward to following the progress of this process. Too many decisions of how to resolve conflict is based on the "Kill them all and let God sort out the good ones" philosophy.

It appears that there were 13 male students involved and any punitive action would have to be based on who posted what, the nature of the what, and the appropriate punishment to each for each level of participation. I can see the enormous time, effort and money involved in the process with the possibility of subsequent law suites. Remember that this is not a criminal investigation but one of morals, ethics, reputation of the University, censorship etc. The male students may be found to not be guilty of anything but bad taste and lack of sensitivity.

I have never seen this proposed process in action and am very interested in how it is organized, supervised and evaluated as to success or not.

[cybercoma]

Just belonging to such a misogynistic Facebook group shows that these men are completely incapable of the kind of judgment needed to be in a position of trust, particularly where they will be administering nitrous oxide on patients locked in a room alone with them.

[Argus]

DAL's response is completely unacceptable. These are adult men who have already completed undergraduate degrees and are entering a profession where they have a fiduciary responsibility to their patients. Their actions show an utter disregard for that relationship of trust and what's even more appalling is that they appear to have known about the gravity of the Ghomeshi situation and just didn't care. This abhorrent behaviour has absolutely no place at an institution of higher education and even less so amongst those in positions of trust, such as doctors (in this case dentists). Restorative justice is ludicrous in this case. These men were shown to be completely devoid of the maturity, dignity, and honour to be in positions of trust and as such should be removed from their programs, told to apply again later in life when they've reached the reached the maturity to be the professionals they were supposed to be training to be.

So... public execution, I take it?

[jacee]

Just belonging to such a misogynistic Facebook group shows that these men are completely incapable of the kind of judgment needed to be in a position of trust, particularly where they will be administering nitrous oxide on patients locked in a room alone with them.

No kidding.

Maybe the women who were the targets want to face these guys down, but I'm not convinced of the value of facing such reptiles.

I think public shaming is good. Let's bring back the village 'stocks'.

"Would you let this man put his hands in your mouth?"

.

Edited December 19, 2014 by jacee

[Moonlight Graham]

Just belonging to such a misogynistic Facebook group shows that these men are completely incapable of the kind of judgment needed to be in a position of trust, particularly where they will be administering nitrous oxide on patients locked in a room alone with them.

I agree, except that dentists are rarely alone with patients (they have dental assistants with them almost constantly), I highly doubt many dentists lock doors, and the dentists that I've been to always work in rooms with either no doors to the rooms whatsoever or with doors always open.

[Guest]

Yeah, you should probably report your Dentist to the College, CC!

[WestCoastRunner]

So... public execution, I take it?

Yeah, you should probably report your Dentist to the College, CC!

These are the remarks that I would have hoped we had moved beyond. Did not these men take an oath? Would you want your wife/sister/daughter to seek dental treatment with these men?

As far as 'restorative justice'. Give me a break. Not many women weighing in on this subject give credence to this type of justice. It is looked upon with much suspicion and not much trust.

Let's compare this to a young man that is caught with a mj joint in his pocket and is charged with a criminal offence. No longer is he/she able to apply/finish a professional degree whether it is law or medical or any other degree. But this person could remarkably, hold the highest respect for women and given the opportunity, present these women as clients with the upmost respect. Could we expect the same from a dental student moron that ridicules and disrespects women? Such unfair judgement.

The only men or women who deserve graduating from this program are folks who treat all patients with the respect they deserve.

[Guest]

These are the remarks that I would have hoped we had moved beyond. Did not these men take an oath? Would you want your wife/sister/daughter to seek dental treatment with these men?

As far as 'restorative justice'. Give me a break. Not many women weighing in on this subject give credence to this type of justice. It is looked upon with much suspicion and not much trust.

Let's compare this to a young man that is caught with a mj joint in his pocket and is charged with a criminal offence. No longer is he/she able to apply/finish a professional degree whether it is law or medical or any other degree. But this person could remarkably, hold the highest respect for women and given the opportunity, present these women as clients with the upmost respect. Could we expect the same from a dental student moron that ridicules and disrespects women? Such unfair judgement.

The only men or women who deserve graduating from this program are folks who treat all patients with the respect they deserve.

Hang on a minute. Cybercoma intimated he was used to having dental appointments in a locked room with just him and the Dentist present. My opinions of the case in hand (don't actually have one) are not represented by that very innocuous comment.

I haven't read anything about the case beyond this thread, and I've only read half of that.

Your comments indicate you don't read much either.

[WestCoastRunner]

Hang on a minute. Cybercoma intimated he was used to having dental appointments in a locked room with just him and the Dentist present. My opinions of the case in hand (don't actually have one) are not represented by that very innocuous comment.

I haven't read anything about the case beyond this thread, and I've only read half of that.

Your comments indicate you don't read much either.

I have heard plenty about this case, including cbc radio.

[Guest]

I have heard plenty about this case, including cbc radio.

Yeah, but you didn't read my post. Not correctly, anyway.

[WestCoastRunner]

Your comments indicate you don't read much either.

I wouldn't have weighed in on this thread if I knew nothing about it.

[WestCoastRunner]

Yeah, but you didn't read my post. Not correctly, anyway.

It is the way you trivialized the issue, that I took offence with.

[WestCoastRunner]

I haven't read anything about the case beyond this thread, and I've only read half of that.

Perhaps you should then.

[Guest]

But I'm not interested. How many threads on here do you take an interest in?

Jokes often trivialize things.

Did you hear the weather forecast in Florida the day after the Challenger disaster?

Edited December 19, 2014 by bcsapper

[WestCoastRunner]

I haven't read anything about the case beyond this thread, and I've only read half of that.

This is a common problem I find throughout this site. Many posters do not extend themselves and educate themselves on the issues that are being posted. I actually do take the time to research and learn from many posts here. Once I have done that, I do respond according to my research and the answers that I have arrived at. I find that too many people here, do not read links that are posted, do not research before answering to posts so it makes for 'what is the point of responding' if posters do not invest the time and research to educate themselves on these issues. This shouldn't be about left vs right. This should be about right vs wrong and the grey area in between.

[WestCoastRunner]

But I'm not interested. How many threads on here do you take an interest in?

Jokes often trivialize things.

Did you hear the weather forecast in Florida the day after the Challenger disaster?

If you are not interested, why on earth would you respond to a thread? When you respond, you take up other posters time when they read your response and compose a response to your response. If you are not interested, leave the thread to those of us who do care. From now on, I will not respond to your posts. Fair enough?

[Guest]

This is a common problem I find throughout this site. Many posters do not extend themselves and educate themselves on the issues that are being posted. I actually do take the time to research and learn from many posts here. Once I have done that, I do respond according to my research and the answers that I have arrived at. I find that too many people here, do not read links that are posted, do not research before answering to posts so it makes for 'what is the point of responding' if posters do not invest the time and research to educate themselves on these issues. This shouldn't be about left vs right. This should be about right vs wrong and the grey area in between.

No kidding? You read all the threads? I read about a quarter, and actually get involved in half that.

That said, I don't do left vs right, generally.

[WestCoastRunner]

No kidding? You read all the threads? I read about a quarter, and actually get involved in half that.

That said, I don't do left vs right, generally.

So why did you respond to this thread?

[Guest]

If you are not interested, why on earth would you respond to a thread? When you respond, you take up other posters time when they read your response and compose a response to your response. If you are not interested, leave the thread to those of us who do care. From now on, I will not respond to your posts. Fair enough?

I'm not interested in the subject matter. I read some threads because I'm interested in the arguments. Moonlight Graham's comment after Cybercoma's post made my comment a no brainer. I just happened to get there first.

It had nothing to do with the OP subject.

I'm interested in this bit now though.

Instead of declaring that from now on you won't respond to my posts, why not just respond to those you want to. It doesn't matter.

Edited December 19, 2014 by bcsapper

[Guest]

So why did you respond to this thread?

See above.

[WestCoastRunner]

Instead of declaring that from now on you won't respond to my posts, why not just respond to those you want to. It doesn't matter.

You are right. I'm just glad to know that you respond to the latest response in a thread and do not take the OP into consideration.