Ontario Teachers Potential Strike

[Michael Hardner]

It hasn't been debunked at all. A teacher's work week is only "longer" because they're not at the "office" for 8-9 hours a day like everyone else. They end up doing some marking on the weekends but it doesn't amount to the 15+ hours a week most of them like to tell us. While some of the newer and younger teachers are actually that dedicated, they're the exception, not the norm.

We had it on the thread earlier... 50 hour week was what was put forward, and I can validate that from two individuals that I asked. Younger teachers have to spend more to build lesson plans, learn the marking software etc.

[Mighty AC]

We had it on the thread earlier... 50 hour week was what was put forward, and I can validate that from two individuals that I asked. Younger teachers have to spend more to build lesson plans, learn the marking software etc.

50 hours would be average. New teachers put in more time as do primary teachers with the additional prep work required. Experienced secondary school educators, covering classes they've previously taught typically put in the least amount of time.

Additionally, teachers spend a serious amount of time in meetings, school based teams and committees on various educational, well being, behavioural and psychological issues relating to their students. Plus most put in extra time on teams, clubs, performances, assemblies, PTA, extra help sessions, etc.

In general, teachers put in far more time and have a lot more on their plate than most realize. Still, the profession is fairly compensated for the time and important work put in. I think most would disagree with Socialist's assertion that they deserve more.

[Moonbox]

Depending on who you ask the answer varies widely. When I ask my younger teacher friends, they'll say they might spend 1-2 hours marking/planning every night, but it's while the TV is on so it's hardly the same thing. The hours obviously go up at the end of the semester during report card time, but that's a small part of the school year. Again, this ignores the 6-hour work day and the three months of holidays.

In any case Michael, you didn't actually validate anything. You asked some teachers, like I did, how much they work every week. Neither my nor your testimonials are worth much. Keep in mind, however, that everyone likes to exaggerate how hard their job is and how many hours they work. The difference is that most jobs actually require you to be on location for at least 8 hours a day.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Moonbox

[Smallc]

We had it on the thread earlier... 50 hour week was what was put forward, and I can validate that from two individuals that I asked. Younger teachers have to spend more to build lesson plans, learn the marking software etc.

I work that much too. So?

[guyser]

Here is your last status update:

So did you just come up with this new terminology today?

Talk about hypocritical.

oh my

[The_Squid]

I work that much too. So?

You missed the point... it debunks the myth that teachers work 3 hours per day, or whatever the right-wingers like to claim...

[Smallc]

You missed the point... it debunks the myth that teachers work 3 hours per day, or whatever the right-wingers like to claim...

They get paid for 6 - 8 hours per day depending on where they are. No one claimed they work that little. Their vacation more than makes up for any short comings.

[Keepitsimple]

Teachers don't get official vacation......but they used to get 20 sick days, now down to 10 in Ontario. In place of vacation as we all know, they get 2 months off in the summer, a one week Spring break, a one week break at Thanksgiving, and a two week winter break. That's a total of 3 months off......and then there are "professional development" days on top of that. And these guys are still striking for more pay and less work. All for the children of course.

[Moonbox]

Teachers don't get official vacation......but they used to get 20 sick days, now down to 10 in Ontario. In place of vacation as we all know, they get 2 months off in the summer, a one week Spring break, a one week break at Thanksgiving, and a two week winter break. That's a total of 3 months off......and then there are "professional development" days on top of that. And these guys are still striking for more pay and less work. All for the children of course.

The best part is that the ones complaining the most are the longer-term ones who had such a sweet ride for such a long time. With thousands of qualified teachers trying to get into the industry, older teachers are complaining about class sizes while striking for higher pay - two more or less mutually exclusive items. That is, of course, unless you live in the fantasy world of a unionized public sector worker.

[socialist]

50 hours would be average. New teachers put in more time as do primary teachers with the additional prep work required. Experienced secondary school educators, covering classes they've previously taught typically put in the least amount of time.

Additionally, teachers spend a serious amount of time in meetings, school based teams and committees on various educational, well being, behavioural and psychological issues relating to their students. Plus most put in extra time on teams, clubs, performances, assemblies, PTA, extra help sessions, etc.

In general, teachers put in far more time and have a lot more on their plate than most realize. Still, the profession is fairly compensated for the time and important work put in. I think most would disagree with Socialist's assertion that they deserve more.

That is correct. 50 hour work weeks for educators is low balling. I know most of us put in 70+ hours a week which includes Saturdays and Sundays. Some people, like moonbox and squid have very little understanding of the true nature of being a 21st century educator.

[socialist]

The best part is that the ones complaining the most are the longer-term ones who had such a sweet ride for such a long time. With thousands of qualified teachers trying to get into the industry, older teachers are complaining about class sizes while striking for higher pay - two more or less mutually exclusive items. That is, of course, unless you live in the fantasy world of a unionized public sector worker.

Who's presently striking? BC teachers fought hard for their learners earlier this year after the courts in BC found the government pulled fast ones on educators. Maybe you missed that, moonbox. Maybe, moonbox, you only choose to hear one side of the argument. Critical thinking skills are needed by many.

Here's a little refresher for you.

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Vaughn+Palmer+history+faith+Liberals+dealings+with+teachers/9912106/story.html

[Ash74]

At the end of the day I have serious doubts that this will come of anything.

The Ontario Liberals are in the unions pockets and will bend to the will of their masters.

They have a majority but they are smart enough to know that it was a lucky election and that many that voted for them did so wanting to keep the minority government with the NDP keeping the Liberals in check.

Wynne won fair and square and that is the fate we are stuck with.

I would not worry about the teach.....educators. They will be bought off once again.

[socialist]

At the end of the day I have serious doubts that this will come of anything.

The Ontario Liberals are in the unions pockets and will bend to the will of their masters.

They have a majority but they are smart enough to know that it was a lucky election and that many that voted for them did so wanting to keep the minority government with the NDP keeping the Liberals in check.

Wynne won fair and square and that is the fate we are stuck with.

I would not worry about the teach.....educators. They will be bought off once again.

Wynne values public education as does the public. That's why voters chose Wynne.

[AngusThermopyle]

Wynne values power and nothing else. You should educate yourself. Maybe keep up with the times.

[Michael Hardner]

Wynne values power and nothing else. You should educate yourself. Maybe keep up with the times.

I wouldn't say that about any politician I don't know personally. I think the real problem is that you don't share her values, unless you have an exculpatory note from her saying something like "I value power and nothing else...".

[Michael Hardner]

In any case Michael, you didn't actually validate anything. You asked some teachers, like I did, how much they work every week. Neither my nor your testimonials are worth much. Keep in mind, however, that everyone likes to exaggerate how hard their job is and how many hours they work.

Work is work... it wasn't just me but another person on the thread who initially was saying they work the same or fewer hours. I work extra time too, but it's at home with the TV on...

[Michael Hardner]

I work that much too. So?

You (and I both actually) work much more than most Canadians.

http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=19

National Picture — In 2012, employed Canadians spent an average of 36.6 hours per week at work.

With me, it's mostly voluntary. I could work fewer hours but I wouldn't be able to get as much done supporting my organization, generating new business etc.

I skimmed this globe article that says 2/3 of us work more than 45 hours a week. But that article also says lower earners (likely hourly wage earners) work more hours. That would imply teachers (higher earners) work more hours in a week than their economic cohorts. Also, teachers are not compensated hourly for those extra hours.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/canadas-work-life-balance-more-off-kilter-than-ever/article4673216/

[Moonbox]

BC teachers fought hard for their learners earlier this year after the courts in BC found the government pulled fast ones on educators.

We always get a good laugh about this sort of comment. The gall of someone negotiating for higher pay and then telling everyone it's for the students is hilarious.

Maybe you missed that, moonbox. Maybe, moonbox, you only choose to hear one side of the argument. Critical thinking skills are needed by many.

Yes, you've given us ample evidence of this and the more you talk the more we get. What does the politicking of the BC government have to do with whether or not teachers are overpaid? The government approached the bargaining table in bad faith for political points. While the court's ruling certainly confirms bargaining rights and denies the province the ability to unilaterally set education policy, it speaks NOTHING of teacher's pay or working conditions. It was an affirmation of collective bargaining rights. That's IT.

While you may think this amounts to a confirmation of your demands for lower class sizes and higher pay, you couldn't be more wrong. What this does is show you how badly public opinion is against you. When shenanigans like this are considered political gold, the teachers obviously have an image problem. This goes beyond the bargaining table over the last 3-4 years. Taxpayers are fed up with the teachers. Your toxic relationship with the government stems from this and the renewed mandate for the Liberals should be concerning for you.

Both sides gained and lost in their positions at the bargaining table, said University of British Columbia education professor E. Wayne Ross.

“I think [teachers] gave up more than the government gave up to get the deal,” he said. “But the government had many more cards to play, and they had a lot more time to hold out than the teachers did.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business/schools+could+reopen+Monday+after+historic+deal+reached+with+teachers+updated+with+video/10207687/story.html#ixzz3LhOaSUG0

Edited December 12, 2014 by Moonbox

[Moonbox]

Work is work... it wasn't just me but another person on the thread who initially was saying they work the same or fewer hours. I work extra time too, but it's at home with the TV on...

The problem with the argument is that it's based on nothing. Your testimonials, mine, a teacher's - they're as substantial as a fart in a storm. In the private sector, if you tried to claim 10 hours a week of work at home that you cannot objectively measure, you'd be laughed at.

What we do know is that teachers are only in the classroom for ~6 hours per day and that's only for 3/4 of the year. That amounts to about ~1200 hours of classroom time a year. To even meet the national average of statistically measured hours worked, that means that teachers would be required to put in ~48-50 hours of real work during the school year (not sitting in front of the TV at home auto-pilot marking with friends/family). I'd argue they're not even doing that, but that's beside the point. If we're going to acknowledge stated working hours like you are for teachers, then to meet national averages teachers would be required to work around ~60 hours per week during the school year.

Of course there are goofs in the teaching profession (and obviously here too) that are claiming they're all messiahs working 60-70 weeks and spending their summer months planning (for our children ), but only a fool would believe them.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Moonbox

[Michael Hardner]

The problem with the argument is that it's based on nothing. Your testimonials, mine, a teacher's - they're as substantial as a fart in a storm.

Not based on nothing. The other poster had no objective to excuse teachers, and unless you think he/she and I were conspiring we have anecdotal evidence from 3 or 4 sources. It's not academic or scientific rigour though, so if you have sometime else then post it.

In the private sector, if you tried to claim 10 hours a week of work at home that you cannot objectively measure, you'd be laughed at.

Which private sector is that ? Where I work, tracking of all work effort including time spent at home is mandatory. Have you ever heard of 'working from home' ?

Anyway, we have no way of knowing of the HRDC and Globe and Mail numbers include working from home. I would assume they do.

What we do know is that teachers are only in the classroom for ~6 hours per day and that's only for 3/4 of the year. That amounts to about ~1200 hours of classroom time a year. To even meet the national average of statistically measured hours worked, that means that teachers would be required to put in ~48-50 hours of real work during the school year (not sitting in front of the TV at home auto-pilot marking with friends/family). I'd argue they're not even doing that, but that's beside the point. If we're going to acknowledge stated working hours like you are for teachers, then to meet national averages teachers would be required to work around ~60 hours per week during the school year.

So you're saying mandatory work at home, at night and on weekends doesn't count as work ? That's flimsy.

That really sounds to me that you just want to throw teachers under the bus.

Of course there are goofs in the teaching profession (and obviously here too) that are claiming they're all messiahs working 60-70 weeks and spending their summer months planning (for our children ), but only a fool would believe them.

Only a fool believes things without cites on here - so give me some cites as I gave you. Thanks.

[Moonbox]

Not based on nothing. The other poster had no objective to excuse teachers, and unless you think he/she and I were conspiring we have anecdotal evidence from 3 or 4 sources. It's not academic or scientific rigour though, so if you have sometime else then post it

So if your anecdotes are reliable sources, then the ones I've posted are as well, along with anyone who else's who cares to weigh in. Unfortunately, this doesn't validate anything. All it does is tell you which angle the poster wants to believe.

Which private sector is that ? Where I work, tracking of all work effort including time spent at home is mandatory. Have you ever heard of 'working from home' ?

The private sector where employees are salaried and a good portion of them are given no allowances for overtime, while the pressure and expectation of their jobs make it difficult to avoid.

So you're saying mandatory work at home, at night and on weekends doesn't count as work ? That's flimsy.

I'm saying that there aren't any organizations in Canada that require a mandatory and regular 50-60 hour work week (15-20 of that being at home) and that when teachers say they're working for 3+ hours at home every night it's a gross exaggeration and/or misrepresentation of what they're actually doing.

That really sounds to me that you just want to throw teachers under the bus.

I think their work conditions, pay, benefits and vacation time speak for themselves.

Only a fool believes things without cites on here - so give me some cites as I gave you. Thanks.

You're calling yourself a fool then too, because you're peddling "validation" of teacher's (professed) hours worked with no citations, while demanding that people who disagree with your anecdotes provide them.

As for the cites you did give, they had literally nothing to do with a teacher's hours. They spoke of hours worked by the general population, and the conclusions you drew from them were conjectures. I worked the numbers out from your own citations (feel free to refute them if you can) and showed how many after-school hours are required for teachers to break-even with the national average of 36.6.

What's worse, however, is that your own citation of national averages includes part-time workers working less than 30 hours per week. What we can conclude from that is that the average full-time non-seasonal worker almost certainly works more than 40+ hours a week. For teachers' annual work load to even approach THAT average, they're looking at 60+ hour work weeks during the school year to even break even with the private sector.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Moonbox

[overthere]

I'm saying that there aren't any organizations in Canada that require a mandatory and regular 50-60 hour work week (15-20 of that being at home) and that when teachers say they're working for 3+ hours at home every night it's a gross exaggeration and/or misrepresentation of what they're actually doing.

It is neither an exaggeration or misrepresentation in the example I know best, which is my spouse.

She works that and more, though she tends to do it at the school rather than at home.

On the other hand she is paid well and the benefits are excellent.

[Big Guy]

Le'ts face it, except for you and me, most people are overpaid and certainty underworked. And I am not completely certain about you.

Everybody has a "good idea" of work load of others - from the Dentist who spends most of his time on the golf course, the Surgeon who makes $millions a year and the snarky waitress at the local fast food joint who has no sense of humor after 8 hrs on her feet.

If you have not been involved in teaching in a classroom then you have no idea of the nature of the job. If you have a predisposition of problems while you were at school you may be looking for payback. Or since you are a taxpayer and the employer of teachers, you have the right and duty to make sure you get your money's worth.

I remember the good old days when the disgruntled members of the public spent most of their time criticizing and cursing the postal workers. I sure miss them.

[Michael Hardner]

So if your anecdotes are reliable sources, then the ones I've posted are as well, along with anyone who else's who cares to weigh in. Unfortunately, this doesn't validate anything. All it does is tell you which angle the poster wants to believe.

I'm just interested in finding out what's real. I have information from 3 teachers + 1 post in this thread.

The private sector where employees are salaried and a good portion of them are given no allowances for overtime, while the pressure and expectation of their jobs make it difficult to avoid.

Yes, just as teachers aren't paid overtime. And they work on the weekend, on the couch or in the den...

It's called working from home and it's the same for teachers as the private sector from what I can see, except that it's required of teachers if they need to do marking, and is only required of private sector employees in certain sectors and in certain conditions.

I'm saying that there aren't any organizations in Canada that require a mandatory and regular 50-60 hour work week (15-20 of that being at home) and that when teachers say they're working for 3+ hours at home every night it's a gross exaggeration and/or misrepresentation of what they're actually doing.

You can't say that it's an exaggeration unless you know for sure. It may be real.

I think their work conditions, pay, benefits and vacation time speak for themselves.

You're calling yourself a fool then too, because you're peddling "validation" of teacher's (professed) hours worked with no citations, while demanding that people who disagree with your anecdotes provide them.

Well, I live with a teacher so I can see it.

As for the cites you did give, they had literally nothing to do with a teacher's hours. They spoke of hours worked by the general population, and the conclusions you drew from them were conjectures. I worked the numbers out from your own citations (feel free to refute them if you can) and showed how many after-school hours are required for teachers to break-even with the national average of 36.6.

Well, I was responding to a comparison of private sector hours vs teacher hours.

What's worse, however, is that your own citation of national averages includes part-time workers working less than 30 hours per week. What we can conclude from that is that the average full-time non-seasonal worker almost certainly works more than 40+ hours a week. For teachers' annual work load to even approach THAT average, they're looking at 60+ hour work weeks during the school year to even break even with the private sector.

No. The G&M study said that the overall average was 45% (I think) and that lower salary employees work overtime more often. That means that well-paid professional jobs that are NOT teachers work much less.

[socialist]

Kathleen understands that cuts to public education will lead to higher future debt. Some of you can't see things beyond one day.