Ontario Teachers Potential Strike

[Mighty AC]

Is full day kindergarden a worth while cause?

Yes I really believe so.

It is good for the chiildren and it does help the parents...

The vision for the program is good, but it's about 10 years off. Like any major change to a system with so many moving parts it takes time to get all the pieces in place. Currently, FDK is a daycare success but a bit of an educational mess. It will get to where it needs to be in time. Class sizes are too big and job descriptions and roles for kindergarten teachers, early childhood education workers and educational assistants need to be sorted out.

Educational initiatives tend to work like pendulums. I think play based education is the right approach, but the pendulum swung away from too much structure towards too little structure. Though, over the next few years it will likely settle in the correct middle ground.

Once it does I expect we'll see fewer actual teachers and more, less expensive, ECEs in the room. Kindergarten teachers will become program managers, coordinating the ECEs in multiple classrooms.

[Mighty AC]

I'm expressing my opinion, and yes casting judgements (but not on all 2 parent working families, only those that can afford not to be for certain periods of time during the most important years in a child's life developmentally). I'm open to debate for those that think they're inaccurate. People can do whatever they want, I just don't have to agree.

Over 70% of families require 2 incomes to achieve the same, household income that only required 1 income 40 years ago. Free trade has certainly benefited the GDP and ownership class, but it is slowly decimating the middle class. As a result daycare is a requirement for the majority of Canadian households.

Full day kindergarten with guaranteed before and after school care spaces is a huge help to many working families. However, it is optional. Kids don't actually have to start until grade one. Some families skip the JK year, a handful skip both. It's great that some households have the means and can afford to have a parent home full time. It's also great that there are now high quality, on site, care options with guaranteed availability.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Mighty AC

[TimG]

Over 70% of families require 2 incomes to achieve the same, household income that only required 1 income 40 years ago.

And this is largely due to the increase in housing prices caused by two income families bidding up the price of desirable real estate. IOW - two income families were driven by a desire to have more rather than need.

Free trade has certainly benefited the GDP and ownership class, but it is slowly decimating the middle class. As a result daycare is a requirement for the majority of Canadian households.

I disagree. Most middle class families spend money on many things that were considered luxuries 40 years ago. In many cases the luxuries are perceived as needs (i.e. SUVs as opposed to cheap cars, regular vacations, $5 lattes). Many people could make do with one income if they were willing to make the sacrifices. Most are not. They want to have their cake and eat it and want to take money from other people to pay for it. Edited December 1, 2014 by TimG

[Mighty AC]

I disagree. Most middle class families spend money on many things that were considered luxuries 40 years ago.

Household income is more or less the same as it was 40-50 years ago despite the fact that it now takes two incomes to achieve it.

[Topaz]

The only thing I'll say is IF the teachers don't want to deal with a PC party, then they better remember Harris when they go into talks with the libs and make sure they get a deal, by BOTH sides giving and taking or they may have to deal with the PC in the next election and loose a lot. Think about.

[Mighty AC]

The only thing I'll say is IF the teachers don't want to deal with a PC party, then they better remember Harris when they go into talks with the libs and make sure they get a deal, by BOTH sides giving and taking or they may have to deal with the PC in the next election and loose a lot. Think about.

Our tax base is on the verge of some serious demographic problems. Despite living through the best economic times ever, Boomers did not look after themselves or the problems they will cause in retirement. In this light, I'd like to see the overall ed budget frozen with teachers also taking a small haircut. The difference should then go towards facility and equipment maintenance.

[TimG]

Household income is more or less the same as it was 40-50 years ago despite the fact that it now takes two incomes to achieve it.

What do you mean by more or less the same? The top 20% have seen an increase of only 25%. The bottom 20% have seen an increase of 15%. The middle 60 got 10%. They are all more or less the same with two income families boosting the wealth of the top 20% the most (i.e. doctors marrying other doctors instead of secretaries).

But those number are after tax and after inflation and a big part of inflation are housing costs which have risen much faster than inflation because of the demand created by two income families.

Edited December 1, 2014 by TimG

[Boges]

The Ontario teachers fight with every government. Now they've got a Premiere that used to be a School Trustee. If they can't make peace with her, then they'll never be happy.

They want to cut $500 million not to cute "services" but to make up for the lack of enrolment. It's hilarious that the Unions would think they're entitled to MORE! money when the number of students that utilize their services have dramatically gone down.

[overthere]

Sounds like someone speaking from a pedestal casting judgement on two parent working families.

To suggest that parents no longer want to raise their own children is ludicrous. Do you have any idea how much it costs to purchase a home on the west coast? It take 2 incomes to support a family, purchase a home and provide all those childhood perks (lessons etc).

You are right that full time kindergarten is a means to provide free daycare to parents. What is the alternative?

Do you have a cite that shows 2 parents in a workforce causes deflation in wages and inflation in prices?

Yes, I know exactly how much it costs to own a home in the bloated Lower Mainland market. However, I did not know that you had to live there, and that you had to own a home. Are those court orders, forcing those choices on you and your partner? At what point in the breeding cycle did you realize that having a child, buying a house and sending the kid to ballet were all mandatory requirements in your lives and not things you freely chose as an adult?

I'll tell you an alternative, a couple of them

Own fewer things. Move to somewhere with disposable income. Consume less. Plan ahead Depend more on yourself for quality of life, and less on the vagaries of an inconstant government . Accept that choices have consequences, personal consequences, to careers, finances and life.

I knew- in advance of providing the sperm- that my life was going to be very different in many ways when I had children. It still surprises me that so many have not thought that through beforehand.

[WestCoastRunner]

Yes, I know exactly how much it costs to own a home in the bloated Lower Mainland market. However, I did not know that you had to live there, and that you had to own a home. Are those court orders, forcing those choices on you and your partner? At what point in the breeding cycle did you realize that having a child, buying a house and sending the kid to ballet were all mandatory requirements in your lives and not things you freely chose as an adult?

I'll tell you an alternative, a couple of them

Own fewer things. Move to somewhere with disposable income. Consume less. Plan ahead Depend more on yourself for quality of life, and less on the vagaries of an inconstant government . Accept that choices have consequences, personal consequences, to careers, finances and life.

I knew- in advance of providing the sperm- that my life was going to be very different in many ways when I had children. It still surprises me that so many have not thought that through beforehand.

Good grief. Settle down. I'm done having kids. Don't lecture me, however, you may want to tone it down a bit when addressing couples with both working full-time trying to keep up with their mortgage payments, daycare, saving for college/university tuition. I don't think you have a grasp on the day to day costs that couples need to keep up.

[overthere]

Tell you what, I'll stop lecturing when you stop whining about the foreseeable consequences of your actions. Did you seriously expect that to go without challenge?

Deal?

I've already noted that it is not necessary to have a mortgage, or that it is necessary to live in the most expensive market in Canada. What part of that don't you uinderstand? It is what YOU want to do, and clearly has not much to do wuith the welfare of your children. They had no input into those decisions. It is also not really necessary to save hundreds of thousands of dollars for a childs education in Canada. Tuitions are around $7k per year in my local and very good public university. Housing and feeding my children for another four years is hardly a strain, and that $7k is much more affordable now than when they were 3 years old.

I don't think you have a grasp on the fact that you don';t have to do any of those things unless you choose them.

[Moonbox]

You are right that full time kindergarten is a means to provide free daycare to parents. What is the alternative?

Do you have a cite that shows 2 parents in a workforce causes deflation in wages and inflation in prices?

Alternatives? Private daycare, grandma & grandpa, one parent staying home for another year or waiting to have kids until you can accommodate one of the above options. Full-day kindergarten is literally useless for education purposes so the idea of paying a teacher's salary and benefits for what amounts to babysitting is dumb. I'd be way more accepting of subsidized day care than full-day kindergarten.

The wage deflation and prince inflation is a question of economic theory. I'd expect it to be way too hard to actually measure the real effects, but the basic idea is that unless each extra person (on average) in the workforce is adding the same value/productivity to the economy, you're likely to see a deflation in wages. More available workers = lower wages. The wages don't get cut in half, however, so overall your household income is still higher, just not double what it was with one income.

[socialist]

Alternatives? Private daycare, grandma & grandpa, one parent staying home for another year or waiting to have kids until you can accommodate one of the above options. Full-day kindergarten is literally useless for education purposes so the idea of paying a teacher's salary and benefits for what amounts to babysitting is dumb. I'd be way more accepting of subsidized day care than full-day kindergarten.

The wage deflation and prince inflation is a question of economic theory. I'd expect it to be way too hard to actually measure the real effects, but the basic idea is that unless each extra person (on average) in the workforce is adding the same value/productivity to the economy, you're likely to see a deflation in wages. More available workers = lower wages. The wages don't get cut in half, however, so overall your household income is still higher, just not double what it was with one income.

So you are against giving kids a better chance in ,life? That concerns me and that philosophy represents the neo-liberal agenda of keeping the little guy down. Anyone who thinks full day kindergarten is baby sitting should have his head examined. Walk into any kindergarten room and you will see solid learning happening. But I can see how the uneducated wouldn't understand that.

[Bonam]

Full-day kindergarten is literally useless for education purposes so the idea of paying a teacher's salary and benefits for what amounts to babysitting is dumb. I'd be way more accepting of subsidized day care than full-day kindergarten.

Do you have any evidence that suggests setting up a subsidized daycare system would be any cheaper than full-day kindergarten? Kindergarten is a system that already exists, and the incremental cost of adding more hours is relatively low, relating mostly to paying for more teacher hours. On the other hand, setting up a whole new system of subsidized/public healthcare and the gargantuan government bureaucracy that would go with it would incur a whole lot of other costs. The daycare workers might make slightly less than teachers in wages, but the thousands of public service workers overseeing the program would more than eat up any savings.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Bonam

[Boges]

Do you have any evidence that suggests setting up a subsidized daycare system would be any cheaper than full-day kindergarten? Kindergarten is a system that already exists, and the incremental cost of adding more hours is relatively low, relating mostly to paying for more teacher hours. On the other hand, setting up a whole new system of subsidized/public healthcare and the gargantuan government bureaucracy that would go with it would incur a whole lot of other costs. The daycare workers might make slightly less than teachers in wages, but the thousands of public service workers overseeing the program would more than eat up any savings.

I read an article recently saying that as FDK rolls out province wide, private daycares are suffering.

[socialist]

I read an article recently saying that as FDK rolls out province wide, private daycares are suffering.

Private daycares aren't as good as public daycares, so this is good news.

[Boges]

Private daycares aren't as good as public daycares, so this is good news.

So you admit FDK is a form of Public Daycare.

[AngusThermopyle]

The truth is that Socialist doesn't give a rats ass about anything but trying to grab more of other peoples money.

[overthere]

The truth is that Socialist doesn't give a rats ass about anything but trying to grab more of other peoples money.

I confess that getting other peoples money is something of a priority to me too.

I rationalize it by thinking that, unlike socialist, I give something in return.

[Moonbox]

Do you have any evidence that suggests setting up a subsidized daycare system would be any cheaper than full-day kindergarten?

I guess you've never heard of the Teacher's Unions?

Kindergarten is a system that already exists, and the incremental cost of adding more hours is relatively low, relating mostly to paying for more teacher hours.

Considering that the vast majority of education spending is teacher salaries, we can safely conclude that incremental would be very high. Four year-olds don't need a teacher and the $70-90,000 salary one would command. They need a babysitter and a play-time mediator.

On the other hand, setting up a whole new system of subsidized/public healthcare and the gargantuan government bureaucracy that would go with it would incur a whole lot of other costs. The daycare workers might make slightly less than teachers in wages, but the thousands of public service workers overseeing the program would more than eat up any savings.

That's such awful BS I don't even know what to start with. Subsidizing public daycare doesn't need to go any further than sending a cheque to the parents in the mail. You have a 4-year old? Great, here's a cheque for X dollars. Whether you spend that on private daycare or if that subsidizes a stay-at-home parent doesn't matter.

[Moonbox]

So you are against giving kids a better chance in ,life?

Where did you draw that conclusion from? Nowhere?

That concerns me and that philosophy represents the neo-liberal agenda of keeping the little guy down.

I'm more concerned with our teachers (who are supposed to be passing off intelligent reasoning skills to our children) are trying to spread brainlessly canned phrases like "neo-liberal agenda" in an attempt to flog their pro-teacher dogma.

Anyone who thinks full day kindergarten is baby sitting should have his head examined. Walk into any kindergarten room and you will see solid learning happening. But I can see how the uneducated wouldn't understand that.

Anyone who thinks full-day kindergarten is much more than babysitting is delusional. The kids are 4-5 year olds and are practically still babies. They're not even old enough to walk home by themselves (even from the bus stop). They need ~11-12 hours of sleep every day and unless they go to bed at 6pm every night they'll need at least an hour or two of nap time at school every day. The idea of paying $70,000+ a year for a glorified babysitter is a joke.

As for education, mine goes well beyond an undergrad and the laughably easy (truly comical) 1 year of teacher's college most of our esteemed educators go through.

[Ash74]

It is very much a case of public funded day care. FDK does have many advantages.

But it was well planned by Ontario Liberal Standards and it is nothing short of a miriacle that it didn't cost 5 billion but we will never know.

There will not be a teacher strike. The Liberals will give into the demands and the tax payers will suffer for that s the way in Ontario.

Wynne and her lacky's will continue to drive this province into the ground and give in to the unions and their croonies.

Unions could care less about the education of our kids and have proven that by threating strike every time they don't get their way.

[socialist]

Where did you draw that conclusion from? Nowhere?

I'm more concerned with our teachers (who are supposed to be passing off intelligent reasoning skills to our children) are trying to spread brainlessly canned phrases like "neo-liberal agenda" in an attempt to flog their pro-teacher dogma.

Anyone who thinks full-day kindergarten is much more than babysitting is delusional. The kids are 4-5 year olds and are practically still babies. They're not even old enough to walk home by themselves (even from the bus stop). They need ~11-12 hours of sleep every day and unless they go to bed at 6pm every night they'll need at least an hour or two of nap time at school every day. The idea of paying $70,000+ a year for a glorified babysitter is a joke.

As for education, mine goes well beyond an undergrad and the laughably easy (truly comical) 1 year of teacher's college most of our esteemed educators go through.

Most teachers I know are working on a Masters degree. That's spelled M-A-S-T-E-R-S. You have no clue what it takes to become a teacher, so, if I was you, I'd avoid putting a foot in the mouth again.

[socialist]

The truth is that Socialist doesn't give a rats ass about anything but trying to grab more of other peoples money.

It is the duty of all citizens to pay taxes for public education which benefits the collective and promotes democracy.

[Ash74]

It is the duty of all citizens to pay taxes for public education which benefits the collective and promotes democracy.

Ok How does education promote democracy?

Not really disagreeing but am curious your thoughts on it when teachers are using their position to place their politcal views on the students.