Ontario Teachers Potential Strike

[socialist]

Ok How does education promote democracy?

Not really disagreeing but am curious your thoughts on it when teachers are using their position to place their politcal views on the students.

We teach kids to take an active role in the country and in the world. We are creating global citizens.

[Ash74]

We teach kids to take an active role in the country and in the world. We are creating global citizens.

Ok but how?

Yes there is clubs to help the enviorment and such but how does that promote democracy?

I get the global citizen and all but that is not democracy. That is just learning to play nice with one another

Edited December 6, 2014 by Ash74

[Moonbox]

Most teachers I know are working on a Masters degree. That's spelled M-A-S-T-E-R-S. You have no clue what it takes to become a teacher, so, if I was you, I'd avoid putting a foot in the mouth again.

Your totally BS and self-serving testimonial is noted. I know exactly what it takes to become a teacher. The information isn't exactly classified.

For a teacher trying to mock someone else's education and spelling ability, it's rather ironic how poor of a grasp you have of sentence structure and comma usage. You're not nearly as smart or hard-working as you think you are.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Moonbox

[socialist]

Your totally BS and self-serving testimonial is noted. I know exactly what it takes to become a teacher. The information isn't exactly classified.

For a teacher trying to mock someone else's education and spelling ability, it's rather ironic how poor of a grasp you have of sentence structure and comma usage. You're not nearly as smart or hard-working as you think you are.

Then tell me what it takes to earn a Masters in Education.

[Ash74]

Then tell me what it takes to earn a Masters in Education.

I am still waiting for you to eplain the whole demoracy is being saved by the teahers unions

[socialist]

I am still waiting for you to eplain the whole demoracy is being saved by the teahers unions

It's not that hard to figure out. Public schools encourage all kids from all walks of life to get involved and have their voices heard. if not for public schools, many kids wouldn't have a chance. maybe you haven't heard of social justice.

[Ash74]

It's not that hard to figure out. Public schools encourage all kids from all walks of life to get involved and have their voices heard. if not for public schools, many kids wouldn't have a chance. maybe you haven't heard of social justice.

Yes but democracy does not guarantee social justice. The teachers have always tried to push their ideology on the students and individuals like me (the neo cons) still keep believing it is up to the individual to want to create a better society and not rely on the state to enforce it. If anything I have seen you preach hate and disrespect to those that have different ideas on how the world would be a better place more then the right wingers you insult. Canada is not actually a democracy it is a constitutional monarchy. yes we elect our representatives but we generally vote for the party not the person. (was not sure if you had that knowledge cause i know how over rated you find it)

Buuuuuuut you still have not explained how the public education system promotes democracy any better than a poster or a clip on utube.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Ash74

[Michael Hardner]

The teachers have always tried to push their ideology on the students and individuals like me ...

There's no way to know if this is true, or if it's just a convenient characterization, unless you have a link to back it up of course....

[Michael Hardner]

Buuuuuuut you still have not explained how the public education system promotes democracy any better than a poster or a clip on utube.

Aaaaaaand... I share your frustration with Socialist not answering this question, mostly because I think the answer is obvious: don't they still TEACH civics ? Or at least in history class, don't they explain how Canada got from the 17th century to 1867 to the constitution to today ?

I thought they still did.

[socialist]

Aaaaaaand... I share your frustration with Socialist not answering this question, mostly because I think the answer is obvious: don't they still TEACH civics ? Or at least in history class, don't they explain how Canada got from the 17th century to 1867 to the constitution to today ?

I thought they still did.

I answered the question. It's fairly obvious. Public education is the only institution that gives a voice to everyone. Everyone is able to participate and feel like a contributing citizen.

[Moonbox]

Then tell me what it takes to earn a Masters in Education.

Why? You don't need that to become a teacher and most teachers don't have it. As for what's required to become a teacher right now, here's the guideline for Ontario:

http://www.oct.ca/~/link.aspx?_id=25CD74DDD6A14F3BA968490666FB1733&_z=z

The minimum requirement is a 3-year undergrad and 1 year of nearly-impossible-to-flunk Teacher's College. That's the equivalent of a normal 4 year undergrad and the average compensation for someone with a 4-year undergrad is waaaay below that of a teacher.

Before you go ahead and tell us all that most teacher's have way more than that, I'll assure you they don't. They mostly have 4-year undergrads instead of 3-year ones, but the majority most assuredly DO NOT have Masters in Education.

[Ash74]

There's no way to know if this is true, or if it's just a convenient characterization, unless you have a link to back it up of course....

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1850598,00.html

An older article but shows the point that it is happening. The Canadian articles were all opinion.

I answered the question. It's fairly obvious. Public education is the only institution that gives a voice to everyone. Everyone is able to participate and feel like a contributing citizen.

Does not the act of voting give everyone a voice?

Are you saying the people that send their children to private school are not being taught democracy?

Should not we the people be keeping an eye on how and what the state is teaching our children and not just follow blindly?

Yes you the master of education or whatever it is you say you are may prefer the Orwell dreams but I will still be at the school board meetings watching the bureaucrats make decisions.The school board is elected and most people have no clue who or what they are voting for. In fact there is a call to end the school boards in Ontario.

The vote towards a school board is more symbolic than anything.

[socialist]

Why? You don't need that to become a teacher and most teachers don't have it. As for what's required to become a teacher right now, here's the guideline for Ontario:

http://www.oct.ca/~/link.aspx?_id=25CD74DDD6A14F3BA968490666FB1733&_z=z

The minimum requirement is a 3-year undergrad and 1 year of nearly-impossible-to-flunk Teacher's College. That's the equivalent of a normal 4 year undergrad and the average compensation for someone with a 4-year undergrad is waaaay below that of a teacher.

Before you go ahead and tell us all that most teacher's have way more than that, I'll assure you they don't. They mostly have 4-year undergrads instead of 3-year ones, but the majority most assuredly DO NOT have Masters in Education.

Many teachers in Canada are currently working to earn their Masters which many school districts are encouraging. You need to do a little digging.

[Michael Hardner]

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1850598,00.html

An older article but shows the point that it is happening. The Canadian articles were all opinion.

Ok, I guess the article shows that this does happen - in the US. But I'm sure in happens in Canada.

But this statement "The teachers have always tried to push their ideology on the students..." is meaningless if we're just talking about isolated incidents. Do we know if this is actually happening to any significant level ?

You could probably also find an example of a teacher taking somebody's lunch but does that mean we can say "the teachers have always stolen students' lunches".

(Note the properly placed apostrophe there, people. That is all. Class dismissed.)

[Michael Hardner]

Many teachers in Canada are currently working to earn their Masters ...

ANOTHER example of what I just posted to Ash. "Many" teachers. How many ? Why do we care ? Is it one ?

Lazy observations such as this don't help anybody's argument. "Many" teachers are lazy and "many" teachers work hard. "Many" arguments are lazy.

[WestCoastRunner]

Alternatives? Private daycare, grandma & grandpa, one parent staying home for another year or waiting to have kids until you can accommodate one of the above options. Full-day kindergarten is literally useless for education purposes so the idea of paying a teacher's salary and benefits for what amounts to babysitting is dumb. I'd be way more accepting of subsidized day care than full-day kindergarten.

Not everyone has access to grandma and grandpa, let's be realistic here, nor can many afford private daycare. I agree that subsidized daycare is the way to go.

[WestCoastRunner]

Many teachers in Canada are currently working to earn their Masters which many school districts are encouraging. You need to do a little digging.

It is incredulous to the amount of posts here that have no substantiated links to support them. Why can't we work to clean that up?

Having said that, I can see that MH is working to clean that up. Kudos to you Michael! This forum is losing its credibility when so many posts are simply opinions, resulting in very few responses to argue them. What is the incentive to debate them?

[socialist]

ANOTHER example of what I just posted to Ash. "Many" teachers. How many ? Why do we care ? Is it one ?

Lazy observations such as this don't help anybody's argument. "Many" teachers are lazy and "many" teachers work hard. "Many" arguments are lazy.

Working in the field and networking with teachers across Canada gives me valuable information. There is a big push throughout the nation to push teachers to earn their Masters degree. I know many teachers in my own district, including me, who will earn masters degrees in the next few years. It will result in higher qualified teachers, but the haters will dislike it because a Masters also results in an increase in pay.

[WestCoastRunner]

Working in the field and networking with teachers across Canada gives me valuable information. There is a big push throughout the nation to push teachers to earn their Masters degree. I know many teachers in my own district, including me, who will earn masters degrees in the next few years. It will result in higher qualified teachers, but the haters will dislike it because a Masters also results in an increase in pay.

And we are to trust your connections? Please provide stats to show that 'many' teachers are earning their masters.

[Michael Hardner]

Working in the field and networking with teachers across Canada gives me valuable information.

There is a big push throughout the nation to push teachers to earn their Masters degree. I know many teachers in my own district, including me, who will earn masters degrees in the next few years. It will result in higher qualified teachers, but the haters will dislike it because a Masters also results in an increase in pay.

You seem to be unable to provide cites for anything you post. Do you realize that posters don't have to accept your authority on any topic ? Furthermore, if you do have information (for example, for an official 'big bush') then you should be able to provide a cite for us, right ?

[Smallc]

It is incredulous to the amount of posts here that have no substantiated links to support them. Why can't we work to clean that up?

Having said that, I can see that MH is working to clean that up. Kudos to you Michael! This forum is losing its credibility when so many posts are simply opinions, resulting in very few responses to argue them. What is the incentive to debate them?

That's ironic considering your posts related to the Furgeson protests.

[socialist]

You seem to be unable to provide cites for anything you post. Do you realize that posters don't have to accept your authority on any topic ? Furthermore, if you do have information (for example, for an official 'big bush') then you should be able to provide a cite for us, right ?

How can I cite the fact that I network with thousands of teachers? I don't care if you don't believe me. Go to any school and ask how many teachers have masters. Then ask how many are currently working on a masters. Provide your own citations.

[socialist]

You seem to be unable to provide cites for anything you post. Do you realize that posters don't have to accept your authority on any topic ? Furthermore, if you do have information (for example, for an official 'big bush') then you should be able to provide a cite for us, right ?

What exactly do you need a cite for? Are you just trying to play for the few fans?

[Moonbox]

Many teachers in Canada are currently working to earn their Masters which many school districts are encouraging. You need to do a little digging.

No, I don't. Your self-interested and self-serving testimonials don't change anything. I've no doubt there are "many" teachers working on their Masters, but this amounts to a tiny fraction of the overall teaching population. Your pay increases based pimarily on seniority so most teachers don't bother. The sad part is that probably the best trained, most engaged and most enthusiastic teachers are the newer ones who are getting paid the least.

What exactly do you need a cite for? Are you just trying to play for the few fans?

It's pretty simple logic. Being a teacher yourself with an obvious bias, your testimonials are worth less than nothing. I can look up what the requirements are to become a teacher, what a teacher gets paid and what uninterested third parties say about teacher compensation in Canada (as in the OECD saying Canada's teachers are among the best-paid in the world and paid at least 5% more than similarly-educated non-teaching professions despite working FAR less hours overall). Also, for every self-serving testimonial you offer, I can get the opposite from close friends in the teaching profession who laugh about how easy it is and about what they do in the summer.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Moonbox

[Moonbox]

Not everyone has access to grandma and grandpa, let's be realistic here, nor can many afford private daycare. I agree that subsidized daycare is the way to go.

Sure, that's understood. Not everyone plans a pregnancy either. Everyone should be able to afford private daycare, so if they need subsidies/tax credits or whatever to be able to then that's fine. The nice part about subsidies like that is that they could actually encourage a parent to stay home and give their 3-4 year old the attention he/she really needs rather than get a McJob that barely nets positive for them after paying for daycare.