Ontario Teachers Potential Strike

Ash74 · December 18, 2014

I would like to see some stats on who "teachers" vote for. Real stats not assumptions and spins. Many in the profession are NDP supporters because of the perceived more humanitarian policies, Many support the Liberals because people in the higher income brackets tend to support Liberal policies. Many support Conservative policies because many teachers are fairly well off, have investments, and certainly do not mind tax cuts.

To assume that they all vote as a homogeneous group at the direction of their union is a mistake.

I think you may find that teachers views are as diversified as anyone in the general population who has attained at least one University degree.

Also on these boards, you will very seldom read what real teachers want but you will get lots and lots of information on what teachers want from non-teachers.

If you want to see a soap opera take a look at the Toronto school board.

Police have to stand outside, a trustee was charged for forcible confinement, vote themselves raises after being told by the government not too,

They are actually setting up the argument to do away with school boards.

Pct2017 · December 18, 2014

It will be interesting to see what effect the BC settlement has on teacher contracts elsewhere in the country. Other governments should take note that it really is OK to say no to teachers, you are not entitled to more. And it is also OK to call the teachers bluff and let them hit the picket lines. Eventually they will settle for exactly what was offered to them months before they struck.

Now, having said all of that, it is unlikely that other provincial governments will have the advantage of dealing with an inept, bumbling set of negotiators on the teachers side of the table like they did here in BC.

Interesting days ahead for teachers and their unions.

socialist · December 18, 2014

It will be interesting to see what effect the BC settlement has on teacher contracts elsewhere in the country. Other governments should take note that it really is OK to say no to teachers, you are not entitled to more. And it is also OK to call the teachers bluff and let them hit the picket lines. Eventually they will settle for exactly what was offered to them months before they struck.

Now, having said all of that, it is unlikely that other provincial governments will have the advantage of dealing with an inept, bumbling set of negotiators on the teachers side of the table like they did here in BC.

Interesting days ahead for teachers and their unions.

Why will it be interesting? Most governments value public education and view it as necessary for a true democracy. Thankfully, people like you are part of a fringe minority of teacher bashers.

socialist · December 18, 2014

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/08/11/ontario-elementary-teachers-meet-ahead-of-contract-talks

Now I will agree with the NDP are reviled. Not unfairly unless you compare them to the Liberals. The Ontario Liberals should be even more despised than the NDP or the P.C's that I will agree with.

The NDP years were a terrible time during a recession. The recession was by no means Rae's fault.His reaction too it was the issue. When everybody was hurting ,He made welfare much more appealing than working. The start of the over regulation of businesses started and the tax hikes that scared businesses away. Over spending with pet projects. His MPP's ran for a new job when the election neared. In the end He saw how out of control it had all gotten and started cutting. Hello "Rae Days". He is likely the smartest person in politics but he was a just a very bad premier. (WOW, got off topic there)

The teachers will follow which ever party will give them the most. I have no issue with raises for teachers,doctors or nurses but my issue is with the side deals. Maintenance contracts, administrators and the bureaucrats tht suck us all dry. Unions don't care about teacher raises. They want more teachers for more union dues. The teachers unions have proven time and time again they care nothing about the students.

Teacher unions care tremendously for the learners in schools. I have no idea why you feel a need to make things up.

Ash74 · December 18, 2014

It will be interesting to see what effect the BC settlement has on teacher contracts elsewhere in the country. Other governments should take note that it really is OK to say no to teachers, you are not entitled to more. And it is also OK to call the teachers bluff and let them hit the picket lines. Eventually they will settle for exactly what was offered to them months before they struck.

Now, having said all of that, it is unlikely that other provincial governments will have the advantage of dealing with an inept, bumbling set of negotiators on the teachers side of the table like they did here in BC.

Interesting days ahead for teachers and their unions.

Wynne paid 500 million for peace in Ontario and the election. Now the argument was started by Dalton who usually bought off the unions first but he broke the contract. It is said that it will save 2 billion but with Liberal math that could mean anything. I honestly don't know how this is going to play out I do doubt that what happens in B.C. will make much difference, just look at what happened when the HST was voted down. McGuinty claimed it would mean Ontario would get all those jobs. Still waiting but that is another topic.

If I had to guess I would say The Liberals buckle this time and fight the next one when the election is closer. A war with teachers right now won't play well with the public.

socialist · December 18, 2014

Wynne paid 500 million for peace in Ontario and the election. Now the argument was started by Dalton who usually bought off the unions first but he broke the contract. It is said that it will save 2 billion but with Liberal math that could mean anything. I honestly don't know how this is going to play out I do doubt that what happens in B.C. will make much difference, just look at what happened when the HST was voted down. McGuinty claimed it would mean Ontario would get all those jobs. Still waiting but that is another topic.

If I had to guess I would say The Liberals buckle this time and fight the next one when the election is closer. A war with teachers right now won't play well with the public.

If you want to lose an election, attack teachers. In BC, the teachers had almost 90% public support, and those people will remember this lock out during the next election.

Ash74 · December 18, 2014

http://www.procurementoffice.ca/2013/01/05/tdsb-contract-with-expensive-maintenance-company-renewed/

This is a group with ties to the union

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/01/04/province_renews_tdsb_contract_with_expensive_maintenance_and_trades_workers.html

http://www.procurementoffice.ca/2013/01/05/tdsb-contract-renewal-may-have-been-politically-motivated/

Taking money from students for their members. Money that could be spent on tools and equipment for the classroom spent to appease the union not the students or teachers.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Ash74

Moonbox · December 18, 2014

If you want to lose an election, attack teachers. In BC, the teachers had almost 90% public support, and those people will remember this lock out during the next election.

If you live in an alternate reality, sure. The 90% public support you're quoting is pure fantasy, because the Liberals were re-elected in BC. Those are the same Liberals who fought the teachers in court and attempted to subvert public bargaining to impose contract conditions on them. The public, as we can see, renewed their mandate...in the real world at least. I'm not really sure what happened in your fantasy world.

The amount of foolish things you say on this forum is astonishing. Nobody needs to be bashing teachers with you around as their spokesperson. Your critical thinking skills are so bizarre you can't help but embarrass yourself and your profession.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Moonbox

socialist · December 18, 2014

If you live in an alternate reality, sure. The 90% public support you're quoting is pure fantasy, because the Liberals were re-elected in BC. Those are the same Liberals who fought the teachers in court and attempted to subvert public bargaining to impose contract conditions on them. The public, as we can see, renewed their mandate...in the real world at least. I'm not really sure what happened in your fantasy world.

The amount of foolish things you say on this forum is astonishing. Nobody needs to be bashing teachers with you around as their spokesperson. Your critical thinking skills are so bizarre you can't help but embarrass yourself and your profession.

Look at this poster to see the many roles a teacher plays every single day.

http://mzteachuh.blogspot.ca/2012/10/tweets-of-day-10-0812.html

socialist · December 18, 2014

So if your anecdotes are reliable sources, then the ones I've posted are as well, along with anyone who else's who cares to weigh in. Unfortunately, this doesn't validate anything. All it does is tell you which angle the poster wants to believe.

The private sector where employees are salaried and a good portion of them are given no allowances for overtime, while the pressure and expectation of their jobs make it difficult to avoid.

I'm saying that there aren't any organizations in Canada that require a mandatory and regular 50-60 hour work week (15-20 of that being at home) and that when teachers say they're working for 3+ hours at home every night it's a gross exaggeration and/or misrepresentation of what they're actually doing.

I think their work conditions, pay, benefits and vacation time speak for themselves.

You're calling yourself a fool then too, because you're peddling "validation" of teacher's (professed) hours worked with no citations, while demanding that people who disagree with your anecdotes provide them.

As for the cites you did give, they had literally nothing to do with a teacher's hours. They spoke of hours worked by the general population, and the conclusions you drew from them were conjectures. I worked the numbers out from your own citations (feel free to refute them if you can) and showed how many after-school hours are required for teachers to break-even with the national average of 36.6.

What's worse, however, is that your own citation of national averages includes part-time workers working less than 30 hours per week. What we can conclude from that is that the average full-time non-seasonal worker almost certainly works more than 40+ hours a week. For teachers' annual work load to even approach THAT average, they're looking at 60+ hour work weeks during the school year to even break even with the private sector.

You have no idea how many hours teachers work. You use the usual teacher basher points that make no sense. You embarrass yourself. Here.

http://www.edudemic.com/hours-do-teachers-really-work/

Michael Hardner · December 18, 2014

You have no idea how many hours teachers work. You use the usual teacher basher points that make no sense. You embarrass yourself. Here.

http://www.edudemic.com/hours-do-teachers-really-work/

It's an American example, though, and no description of survey methods I could find. Brought to you by BusyTeacher.org so it's reasonable to assume this is advocacy and not objective. The survey I quoted below was more objective.

Ash74 · December 18, 2014

You have no idea how many hours teachers work. You use the usual teacher basher points that make no sense. You embarrass yourself. Here.

http://www.edudemic.com/hours-do-teachers-really-work/

There is quite a bit wrong with that break down

What school's have students there for eight hours?

Most I know of start at 9am and end at 3:15. Two nutrition breaks at 20 mins each mean that they spend about 5 1/2 hours in the classroom a day.

High school is usually less. I am not taking into account planning or marking just teaching like your post said.

Pct2017 · December 18, 2014

Wynne paid 500 million for peace in Ontario and the election. Now the argument was started by Dalton who usually bought off the unions first but he broke the contract. It is said that it will save 2 billion but with Liberal math that could mean anything. I honestly don't know how this is going to play out I do doubt that what happens in B.C. will make much difference, just look at what happened when the HST was voted down. McGuinty claimed it would mean Ontario would get all those jobs. Still waiting but that is another topic.

If I had to guess I would say The Liberals buckle this time and fight the next one when the election is closer. A war with teachers right now won't play well with the public.

Our election in BC in 2013 was interesting to say the least. NDP absolutely had it in the bag but ultimately lost by a larger margin than the previous mandate. Much has been written on what occurred and the general consensus is that Dix was seen as weak by the voter. But also what came into play was a comment made by Susan Lambert, the head of the teachers union. She stated that CBristly Clarks goose was cooked. But, she could not stop there. She went on to say that the NDP would simply have to raise taxes in order to fund her union's demands. That got a ton of play out here. I am not saying it was the deciding factor, but it was one of the issues that ultimately cost the NDP the election.

So, the bottom line is that any political party is very foolish to seek a block of votes from the teachers at the expense of the general electorate. Teachers are very polarizing which can work against politicians far more often than it benefits them. You only have to look at the comments section following any story about teachers and their unions to see just how split public opinion is.

Moonbox · December 18, 2014

You have no idea how many hours teachers work. You use the usual teacher basher points that make no sense. You embarrass yourself. Here.

http://www.edudemic.com/hours-do-teachers-really-work/

You're citing a website run by teachers that allows them to download worksheets and lessons so they don't have to prepare their own... :rolleyes:

Half the information on it is categorically false (like salaries and workday hours) and the rest of it is just the self-congratulatory and self-promoting BS of a few teachers who managed to put some pie-charts and graphics together. This is literally the most biased, least reliable source you could have cited and it's pathetic that you don't realize that.

Look at this poster to see the many roles a teacher plays every single day.

http://mzteachuh.blo...ay-10-0812.html

That's an astoundingly stupid citation. Without entering the realm of full-on troll, you could not have posted a more incompetent reference for your argument.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Moonbox

overthere · December 18, 2014

It will be interesting to see what effect the BC settlement has on teacher contracts elsewhere in the country. Other governments should take note that it really is OK to say no to teachers, you are not entitled to more. And it is also OK to call the teachers bluff and let them hit the picket lines. Eventually they will settle for exactly what was offered to them months before they struck.

Now, having said all of that, it is unlikely that other provincial governments will have the advantage of dealing with an inept, bumbling set of negotiators on the teachers side of the table like they did here in BC.

Interesting days ahead for teachers and their unions.

Public sector union agreements anywhere in Canuckistan always have an effect on other CBAs.

The very first words out of a union negotiators mouth are always 'we are below BC, or AB, or the national average'. Forget the supply and demand, forget the fiscal condition of the employer, forget the cost of living indicators, forget the cost of benefits, forget demographics, and forget the economy.

But hey, we deserve more because somebody 4000 kms gets more.

socialist · December 18, 2014

You're citing a website run by teachers that allows them to download worksheets and lessons so they don't have to prepare their own...

Half the information on it is categorically false (like salaries and workday hours) and the rest of it is just the self-congratulatory and self-promoting BS of a few teachers who managed to put some pie-charts and graphics together. This is literally the most biased, least reliable source you could have cited and it's pathetic that you don't realize that.

That's an astoundingly stupid citation. Without entering the realm of full-on troll, you could not have posted a more incompetent reference for your argument.

The pathetic aspect of all this is that you have absolutely NO idea what an educator has to deal with on a minute to minute basis. We are responsible for all the kids in our classes for 7 hours. Many So-called experts on here couldn't handle 5 kids for very long. We take them all and do our best to give each learner a chance. You try dealing with kids who are hungry each day. You deal with the learners who come to school with all kinds of baggage. And when these kids struggle, people like you blame educators because you don't have a bloody clue what goes on in today's schools.

Moonbox · December 19, 2014

The pathetic aspect of all this is that you have absolutely NO idea what an educator has to deal with on a minute to minute basis.

No, the truly pathetic thing is how you've not been able to provide one legitimate source or citation for ANYTHING you've said after 12 pages, and how you've insisted that your self-professed martyrdom qualifies as anything even resembling a reasonable, fact-based discussion.

Your entire argument in the whole thread can literally be summed up as:

"Education is important and teachers are really smart. Our job is really hard and we work even harder. Trust us."

No facts, no objective third-party references, no statistical comparisons...just repeated claims that you're all saints and you deserve to be paid more.

Like I've said, for someone claiming to be a highly-intelligent educator, you're failing miserably to demonstrate it! :lol:

Edited December 19, 2014 by Moonbox

socialist · December 19, 2014

No, the truly pathetic thing is how you've not been able to provide one legitimate source or citation for ANYTHING you've said after 12 pages, and how you've insisted that your self-professed martyrdom qualifies as anything even resembling a reasonable, fact-based discussion.

Your entire argument in the whole thread can literally be summed up as:

"Education is important and teachers are really smart. Our job is really hard and we work even harder. Trust us."

No facts, no objective third-party references, no statistical comparisons...just repeated claims that you're all saints and you deserve to be paid more.

Like I've said, for someone claiming to be a highly-intelligent educator, you're failing miserably to demonstrate it!

You haven't posted anything contrary to what I'v said. What makes your narrow-minded views correct?

Michael Hardner · December 19, 2014

You haven't posted anything contrary to what I'v said.

Socialist, I need to point out that this is the wrong way to look at it: you still should provide a cite of some kind when asked to back up your points.

Moonbox · December 19, 2014

You haven't posted anything contrary to what I'v said. What makes your narrow-minded views correct?

We've posted and discussed a ton of facts and statistics (Michael especially) from StatsCanada, the HRDC, the OECD, as well as various newspapers and think-tanks. All of them objectively supported what you've denied, or outright dismissed what you've claimed. Your refusal to participate in these fact-based discussion is your own fault, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. It just means you didn't like what was uncovered.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Moonbox

socialist · December 19, 2014

Socialist, I need to point out that this is the wrong way to look at it: you still should provide a cite of some kind when asked to back up your points.

Here you go, Michael.

But it involves much reading.

https://www.bctf.ca/IssuesInEducation.aspx?id=21453&libID=21443

Pct2017 · December 19, 2014

Here you go, Michael.

But it involves much reading.

https://www.bctf.ca/IssuesInEducation.aspx?id=21453&libID=21443

"The following Reports represent our Selection of Canadian Research into Teachers work lives...." Even the BCTF admits they went a cherry picking. C'mon there young fellow, you are challenged to provide a non-partial research piece to back up your loopy opinions and the best you can do is citing the most rabid out of touch public sector union in Canada?

Moonbox · December 19, 2014

Here you go, Michael.

But it involves much reading.

https://www.bctf.ca/IssuesInEducation.aspx?id=21453&libID=21443

You posted a link to the BCTF's website! That's like using the Conservative Party's website to find pro-Stephen Harper facts! You almost couldn't have attempted a more incompetent citation. What's worse is that you didn't even discuss it. You just plopped a link into your post and said, "Here you go!" That's so astonishingly dumb I can only shake my head and laugh.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Moonbox

ironstone · December 19, 2014

I keep hearing debt this and debt that. I'm not concerned. It is our duty as citizens of a democracy to pay taxes.

The sky has been falling for years, yet when I look up, all I see is sky. I don't worry about what Chicken Little says. Debt is just an angry excuse of right-wingers.

So in your opinion,a government can keep piling up debt and there are absolutely no consequences?

It's likely you're not aware that in Ontario,the interest payments on the debt exceed 10 billion dollars a year.It's the third largest expense for Ontario taxpayers after health care and education.

Ever hear what's happening in Greece,Portugal,Italy,Spain?

Too many low-information voters in this country.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/ontarios-debt-burden-just-keeps-on-growing/article11689508/

overthere · December 19, 2014

The pathetic aspect of all this is that you have absolutely NO idea what an educator has to deal with on a minute to minute basis. We are responsible for all the kids in our classes for 7 hours. Many So-called experts on here couldn't handle 5 kids for very long. We take them all and do our best to give each learner a chance. You try dealing with kids who are hungry each day. You deal with the learners who come to school with all kinds of baggage. And when these kids struggle, people like you blame educators because you don't have a bloody clue what goes on in today's schools.

One of the metrics used in classifying jobs and determining appropriate pay levels is " consequences of actions".

How do you feel teachers fit into this? Does a bad day for a teacher in the classroom result in anything irreversible?

For example: when a Red Seal sous chef has a bad day, the customers get salmonella or e coli infections.

When an auto mechanic has a bad day, your brakes don't work.

When an aircraft second officer has a bad day,.........

yOu get the idea.

All of these people, in mid career and with hours of training equivalent to a certifioed teacher, earn less than a teacher in mid career.

Are they underpaid, or are teachers overpaid?