Tories to increase immigration levels for election year

jacee · November 13, 2014

I was responding to the suggestion we increase our population to 100 million.

Montreal, and Quebec, have both been badly mismanaged for many years, that's in large part why their economic performance has lagged.

Toronto and Vancouver are horribly overcrowded, overpriced, and getting worse. Too many people, not enough infrastructure, highways, roads, public transit or room. I know you don't care that a shitty bungalow in Vancouver goes for two million bucks but it's supremely unhelpful to the vast majority of the people who live there.

So now triple their population and imagine how lovely life would be there.

And you're blaming all that on "immigrants"?

Ridiculous.

Don't live there, don't go there if you don't like it.

Problem solved.

Argus · November 13, 2014

These two cities were recently rated the 2nd and 3rd best cities to live in, in the entire world. Is it possible that you just have different urban tastes than the rest of the human race?

Third and fourth, to be exact, and the criteria included human rights violations, conflict, and culture.

I'm perfectly willing to admit Toronto has a lot of stuff to see, if you can get to it on the overcrowded roads.

But having to pay three times more for housing seems like a major minus to me.

jacee · November 14, 2014

Third and fourth, to be exact, and the criteria included human rights violations, conflict, and culture.

I'm perfectly willing to admit Toronto has a lot of stuff to see, if you can get to it on the overcrowded roads.

Take transit.

But having to pay three times more for housing seems like a major minus to me.

And all of that is 'immigrants' fault?

.

Edited November 14, 2014 by jacee

marcus · November 14, 2014

I know quite a bit about immigration and yes I knew very well what changes had been made. But that doesn't mean they worked. As I have alread pointed out, immigration success continues to lag, and the issue of bringing in highly skilled immigrants with university degrees continues to be their lack of language skills. Being able to get by in English, as in what I could bluntly call 'taxi driver English' is fine for lower skilled jobs but entirely inadequate for the higher level jobs these individuals would be pursuing.

See. You don't know.

There is a threshold in the language requirement for people coming into the country under the skilled worker program. Achieving a minimum of 6 out of 9 in all four abilities (Reading, Speaking, Listening and Writing) in IELTS is not easy to do. I know that because I taught ESL in the past.

Also, SO WHAT if immigrants don't start off at the same level as those who have been in Canada all their lives. It is reasonable to assume for someone who has just entered a new country, with a new culture to start slower in the first few years. So what if there is a period of adjustment? This is a stupid excuse to be against immigration.

Argus: I think everyone is waiting with anticipation in regards to your solution to tackle a serious problem with the demographic and the aging population and the lack of people in the workforce both now and even more urgently in the future.

hitops · November 14, 2014

So? What is this profession, btw?

Oncologist

I might point out that one of the reasons Fillipinos have a high employment rate is that their English language skills tend to be much superior to many other immigrant groups. On the other hand, Filipinos, while outperforming most other third world immigrants, still lag Eropean immigrants, and those from the US and Australia.

http://global-economics.ca/empin_immigrant_region.htm

That data is more than 10 years old right now (the website also looks like it was designed in the 90's). Doesn't mean it doesn't illustrate a trend, but we have more recent information. Filipinos not only have higher employment rates than other immigrant groups, but higher than native-born Canadians.

http://www.cicsnews.com/?tag=statistics-canada

The data you provided also does not account for the overall stagnation in all wage growth, whether immigrant or not.

And is that a good thing given that the government has long announced it is bringing in highly skilled immigrants? Highly skilled immigrants should not be flooding into entry level service jobs.

I don't see a problem with it as long as we are bringing in the right kind of people, and Filipinos certainly are that. When you start out in a new place, just like when you start out in life, you will likely be working in entry-level. The vast majority of our parents and grandparents did that. Anyway the immigrant story is usually that the immigrants themselves do better than one might expect given their lack of credentials, but they do struggle, but then the kids do much better than the Canadian average because they inherit the work ethic values.

In particular health care, I run into Filipinos all the time (where I trained, if you estimated demographics from the hospital personnel, you would think Canada was 40-50% Filipino). Purely anecdotal, I have no doubt they will be running the place in a generation. So hard working, so positive and great attitudes, friendly, strong social and family cohesion, highly motivated and responsive in the workplace, etc. It's a refreshing change from the cynical, entitled, and lazy support staff one can more often encounter with the locals. If I ask a Filipino nurse to do something, I know it will get done right away. They don't spend time wallowing in victimhood regarding perceived racism. The community as a whole it seems doesn't even register it, if it exists. Not really surprising therefore, that as a race it doesn't hold them back.

Edited November 14, 2014 by hitops

dre · November 14, 2014

Third and fourth, to be exact, and the criteria included human rights violations, conflict, and culture.

I'm perfectly willing to admit Toronto has a lot of stuff to see, if you can get to it on the overcrowded roads.

But having to pay three times more for housing seems like a major minus to me.

Well houses cost more in places that people find desirable to live in. But also we never let the realestate bubble that formed between 2004 and 2011 to deflate. The average price of a home in Vancouver went up 400k during this period, and the government propped these prices up by bailing out banks, and keeping interest rates at historic lows.

Argus · November 14, 2014

There is a threshold in the language requirement for people coming into the country under the skilled worker program. Achieving a minimum of 6 out of 9 in all four abilities (Reading, Speaking, Listening and Writing) in IELTS is not easy to do. I know that because I taught ESL in the past.

Good for you. I worked for the federal government. I can tell you a lot about ESL and FSL courses and those who studied intensively and graduated from them. I can tell you that with rare exceptions, the only people truly fluent in a second language here are those who grew up with and around that language. Anglos who grow up in Quebec speak great French. Francophones who grow up outside Quebec speak fluent English. For the rest, the results are imperfect, at best. I worked around many Francophones who had tested well on English tests, but whose language skills were far inferior to those of a native english speaker. And from their testimony the same can easiy be said about Anglophones speaking French.

Also, SO WHAT if immigrants don't start off at the same level as those who have been in Canada all their lives. It is reasonable to assume for someone who has just entered a new country, with a new culture to start slower in the first few years. So what if there is a period of adjustment?

The problem is that the very high level of language skills required of someone who is seeking a high level position don't come easily. Yes, I knew a lot of French managers who spoke very good English and were fluent, but they'd spent many years, sometimes decades, speaking English by then.

For immigrants who get here clutching their degrees, when they can't find a job in their area of expertise they wind up in low level service sector jobs. Sure, their language skills will improve in the coming years, but then they apply for a high level position and their only Canadian job experience is woking as a taxi driver or shop clerk. That makes things very difficult, degree or not.

Argus: I think everyone is waiting with anticipation in regards to your solution to tackle a serious problem with the demographic and the aging population and the lack of people in the workforce both now and even more urgently in the future.

Encourage Canadians to have more kids. And if we do have immigration, ensure the immigrants are those which government statistics show are most likely to be economically succesful in Canada, that being the ones from Europe and the US.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Argus

dre · November 14, 2014

Encourage Canadians to have more kids. And if we do have immigration, ensure the immigrants are those which government statistics show are most likely to be economically succesful in Canada, that being the ones from Europe and the US.

Encouraging Canadians to have more kids is easier said than done. Large famlies are not looked on as being desirable in our culture anymore. The reasons for declining birthrates in the west are capitalism, and materialism, and education... not a shortage of government programs. The government already spends a huge part of its budget on things that encourage people to have children.. things like universal healthcare, universal education, and all kinds of other family subsidies.

And I dont think theres enough european and american applicants to replace applicants coming from the rest of the world.

For immigrants who get here clutching their degrees, when they can't find a job in their area of expertise they wind up in low level service sector jobs.

We need to fix some of these things. In a lot of cases we do not honor perfectly good foreign certifications, or we throw up artificial obstacles to these people being employed in our field.

For example... we have a chronic shortage of family physicians, yet a doctor from India can come here, ace his exams to become certified as a doctor... but he still cant practice medicine because we will not give him a residency slot. In many cases canadian professionals work to exclude immigrants in order to create articial scarcity of their services and drive up their own wages.

We should be working with other countries to harmonize training and certification for professionals, and to make degrees and certifications more portable.

Edited November 14, 2014 by dre

marcus · November 14, 2014

Good for you. I worked for the federal government. I can tell you a lot about ESL and FSL courses and those who studied intensively and graduated from them. I can tell you that with rare exceptions, the only people truly fluent in a second language here are those who grew up with and around that language. Anglos who grow up in Quebec speak great French. Francophones who grow up outside Quebec speak fluent English. For the rest, the results are imperfect, at best. I worked around many Francophones who had tested well on English tests, but whose language skills were far inferior to those of a native english speaker. And from their testimony the same can easiy be said about Anglophones speaking French.

The problem is that the very high level of language skills required of someone who is seeking a high level position don't come easily. Yes, I knew a lot of French managers who spoke very good English and were fluent, but they'd spent many years, sometimes decades, speaking English by then.

For immigrants who get here clutching their degrees, when they can't find a job in their area of expertise they wind up in low level service sector jobs. Sure, their language skills will improve in the coming years, but then they apply for a high level position and their only Canadian job experience is woking as a taxi driver or shop clerk. That makes things very difficult, degree or not.

Again. Lots of opinion in your comments, just like your ignorant opinion on Toronto and Vancouver which have been repeatedly ranked as two of the best cities in the world.

Go to any engineering company. Go to an accounting firm. Go to hospitals. Go to a mechanic shop. You will see an increasing number of immigrants in which English is not their first language. So what? Are they not able to do their jobs?

You have demonstrated time and again that you allow your bigotry and stereotyping to formulate your opinions.

Encourage Canadians to have more kids. And if we do have immigration, ensure the immigrants are those which government statistics show are most likely to be economically succesful in Canada, that being the ones from Europe and the US.

Like there isn't heavy encouragement both in pushing people to have more kids and to attract Europeans.

There are special visas only given to those from Europe, Australia and New Zealand. It's still not enough.

You will just have to live with the fact that non-white people who can speak another language are going to be coming to Canada.

Edited November 14, 2014 by marcus

Argus · November 14, 2014

Again. Lots of opinion in your comments, just like your ignorant opinion on Toronto and Vancouver

My opinion of Toronto and Vancouver is based on having been there and reading about their difficulties. It's not ignorant. There are two definitions of ignorant. One is lacking in knowledge, which is not the case. The other is lacking in manners, which is the case with regard to your post. Actually, your post was ignorant under both definitions.

Go to any engineering company. Go to an accounting firm. Go to hospitals. Go to a mechanic shop. You will see an increasing number of immigrants in which English is not their first language. So what? Are they not able to do their jobs?

Go to any welfare counter, go to any welfare housing project, call a cab, have a look at the cleaning staff at your office building. Those are the other immigrants we brought here, and some of them have degrees.

You have demonstrated time and again that you allow your bigotry and stereotyping to formulate your opinions.

I haven't said a thing which can actually be termed bigoted Your posts, on he other hand, time and time again demonstrate a shrill ignorance that I have a great deal of time showing the slightest respect for.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Argus

Argus · November 14, 2014

Encouraging Canadians to have more kids is easier said than done.

I grant you this is the case. It's easier to just allow in immigrants. The same goes for job skills which are or are alleged to be in short supply. Finding and training up the people to do them is also easier said than done. That's another reason immigration is used as a crutch, to keep the government from trying to figure out how to do it right.

I haven't done a lot of studies myself with regard to encouraging larger families, but it seems to me from what I've read that the best path is in making it easier on caregivers to look after their children, both in terms of finances and time. Women with less rewarding jobs would rather stay home with the kids. Women with careers would like to go back to work part time but still have more time free to take care of the kids. Addressing these issues would, I think, help with a low birth rate.

And I dont think theres enough european and american applicants to replace applicants coming from the rest of the world.

There are tons now. The unemployment rate for those under 30 in some European countries is 40-50%. But we set quotas by country, and the quotas for most European countries are pretty low.

We need to fix some of these things. In a lot of cases we do not honor perfectly good foreign certifications, or we throw up artificial obstacles to these people being employed in our field.

I don't disagree with this. At the same time, we have to be aware that the state of professional education out there in the third world is not always equal to ours, particularly in the medical field. It's been a while, and I don't know if it's still accurate, but I remember hearing a doctor once say that the majority of doctors in Russia are, by and large, barely qualified to be nurses over here.

We should be working with other countries to harmonize training and certification for professionals, and to make degrees and certifications more portable.

I don't see the incentive for third world governments to harmonize their training so their doctors and other professionals can emigrate to Canada, frankly.

Black Dog · November 14, 2014

I grant you this is the case. It's easier to just allow in immigrants. The same goes for job skills which are or are alleged to be in short supply. Finding and training up the people to do them is also easier said than done. That's another reason immigration is used as a crutch, to keep the government from trying to figure out how to do it right.

I haven't done a lot of studies myself with regard to encouraging larger families, but it seems to me from what I've read that the best path is in making it easier on caregivers to look after their children, both in terms of finances and time. Women with less rewarding jobs would rather stay home with the kids. Women with careers would like to go back to work part time but still have more time free to take care of the kids. Addressing these issues would, I think, help with a low birth rate.

The next conservative politician or whomever who advocated for restricted immigration and superior childcare would be the first. It's probably smart policy, but it would be costly and not politically expedient so there's no hope in hell of that happening.

dre · November 14, 2014

I don't see the incentive for third world governments to harmonize their training so their doctors and other professionals can emigrate to Canada, frankly.

I do... They want to attract patients from here. Thats why programs like the JCI have been so successful.

There are tons now. The unemployment rate for those under 30 in some European countries is 40-50%. But we set quotas by country, and the quotas for most European countries are pretty low.

I would need to understand better how those quotas are set before I had an opinion on whether they should be set higher for European countries. Maybe its possible theres more qualified applicants in some of the other countries?

At the same time, we have to be aware that the state of professional education out there in the third world is not always equal to ours, particularly in the medical field.

Thats why they have to pass our exams, and do a 2 year residency. The reason we have so many doctors working in other fields is basically pure protectionism. The provincial medical associations control the certification process but they ALSO negotiate money with the provinces on behalf of doctors. Thats a blatant conflict of interest, and they do it to protect their own jobs and increase their wages. Countries like India, Singapore, and Thailand train good doctors these days, and patient outcomes in those places are comparable to our own.

I haven't done a lot of studies myself with regard to encouraging larger families, but it seems to me from what I've read that the best path is in making it easier on caregivers to look after their children, both in terms of finances and time. Women with less rewarding jobs would rather stay home with the kids. Women with careers would like to go back to work part time but still have more time free to take care of the kids. Addressing these issues would, I think, help with a low birth rate.

I find it highly unlikely that it would make much difference. Like I said our low birth rate is a cultural phenomenon and the same thing is happening even in countries that have tons of social programs, extended maternity leave, national childcare programs, etc.

Many of these programs are a good idea... but they arent going to increase birthrates in a significant way.

Edited November 14, 2014 by dre

jacee · November 15, 2014

The next conservative politician or whomever who advocated for restricted immigration and superior childcare would be the first. It's probably smart policy, but it would be costly and not politically expedient so there's no hope in hell of that happening.

With the current regime, no.

With a Liberal + NDP majority, yes.

I think immigration already is restricted.

Universal child care is a necessity.

.

Keepitsimple · November 15, 2014

With the current regime, no.

With a Liberal + NDP majority, yes.

I think immigration already is restricted.

Universal child care is a necessity.

.

Child care/Education is a provincial responsibility. Quebec chose to provide heavily subsidized daycare 20 years ago - but no other province has chosen to copy them. If it's such a necessity, ask yourself why that is so.

jacee · November 15, 2014

"subsidized" is such a non issue.

It's investment for returns:

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/gta/2014/10/26/what_does_universal_childcare_mean_for_working_women.html

Do the tax benefits of having more mothers in the workforce offset the cost of subsidizing a universal system?Fortin argues yes, that the public investment gets a great return.In 2008 in Quebec, we estimated that the two levels of government pocketed $900 million over and above the additional cost it incurred by going universal.

Edited November 15, 2014 by jacee

WestCoastRunner · November 15, 2014

With the current regime, no.

With a Liberal + NDP majority, yes.

I think immigration already is restricted.

Universal child care is a necessity.

.

I am amazed that we still do not have universal child care. It is truly mind boggling.

overthere · November 15, 2014

Thats why they have to pass our exams, and do a 2 year residency. The reason we have so many doctors working in other fields is basically pure protectionism. The provincial medical associations control the certification process but they ALSO negotiate money with the provinces on behalf of doctors. Thats a blatant conflict of interest, and they do it to protect their own jobs and increase their wages. Countries like India, Singapore, and Thailand train good doctors these days, and patient outcomes in those places are comparable to our own.

The requiremtns for upgrading of foreign doctors relate directly to the Canadian assessments of their local training. Here, doctors trained in Western Europe, USA, and oddly South Africa are deemed to have near equivalencies and licensing is fairly straightforward.

Cuba, for example, is often touted as having excellent health care, and perhaps it does- for a developing country. But compared to health care in Canada, they have no access to training on modern diagnostic equipment and techniques and are far behind in drug therapies. Their doctors are inferior in this regard.

I have absolutely no interest is consulting a physician unless I am certain they are at least the equivalent of a Canadian trained doctor. This is not an area where we should make compromises or cut corners to 'help out' and immigrant.

eyeball · November 15, 2014

I am amazed that we still do not have universal child care. It is truly mind boggling.

Considering you can still be thrown into jail for pot I'd say it's about par for course.

eyeball · November 15, 2014

The Liberals also put into motion one of the most egregious privatizations of a public resource in Canada with their so-called rationalization of Canada's Pacific coast fisheries. The Liberals are very fickle about legislating for the working class.

Smallc · November 15, 2014

I am amazed that we still do not have universal child care. It is truly mind boggling.

Most of us aren't willing to pay for it.

Keepitsimple · November 16, 2014

"subsidized" is such a non issue.

It's investment for returns:

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/gta/2014/10/26/what_does_universal_childcare_mean_for_working_women.html

Do the tax benefits of having more mothers in the workforce offset the cost of subsidizing a universal system?Fortin argues yes, that the public investment gets a great return.In 2008 in Quebec, we estimated that the two levels of government pocketed $900 million over and above the additional cost it incurred by going universal.

And now, 6 years later - the chickens have come home to roost. The Quebec government has deemed that their public spending is unsustainable......

Edited November 16, 2014 by Keepitsimple