Stephen Harper taking away door to door postal service

[overthere]

I've already addressed the issue of Canada Post's parcel delivery system. Yes, they are successful at it, and it does turn a profit. I just think its a questionable business decision to keep a successful part of an organization from subsidizing an unsuccessful one.

In the case of lettermail, first class mail, Canada Post has no choice in maintaining the service no matter what. Is that the subsidy you mean? Along with the monopoly on first class, they are also required to deliver it anywhere in Canada for the same price. They used to bring up this red herring every so often to justify their stamp price increases, but it ain't so. The volume of mail that goes to the northern part of provinces or the territories is miniscule compared to the megabucks earned from delivering hundreds of thousands of utility bills in cities or towns.

But that has all changed with the drop in volume. CPC can saw off on lettermail: raise prices dramatically, lose more volume, still make money or at least break even.

They will continue to focus on their ace in the hole, their sophisticated distribution network, which luckily can handle both letters and a hoped for avalanche of parcels(and admail, another earner in the cities).

[eyeball]

I'd like to know what type of influence or control we had over Canada post, was it over the X-mas period when they loved to strike, was it over the price of a stamp.....I think in todays age snail mail is done , it would not take us much of a leap to convert and eliminate snail mail all together....everything or most things are available on line, banking, bills, including most fliers. who knows maybe it would lead to a paperless society.....

I did say a modicum of control - as voters perhaps. I agree in this day and age that most snail mail is becoming redundant but not all and not for everyone including mostly elderly and disabled people, so...perhaps that is what should be guiding CP's restructuring efforts instead of some ideological appeal to taxpayers that is apparently based on a premise that Canada Post may be costing us more than it's worth.

Personally I don't mind shelling out a little extra to help the elderly or disabled but perhaps I'm blinded by some old ideology that's as outmoded an redundant as Canada Post.

[Big Guy]

"In the old days" I remember when it was the same mailman delivering the same route daily. He became the local information guru who knew who subscribed to what magazines, got what papers and all kinds of other information about every home owner. If the mail was not picked up by the next day he would investigate and some old folks were saved while in distress. Some of the dead ones were found before they really stunk up the house or were eaten by their pets.

Recently, different postal workers appeared doing different routes and an anonymity developed - the local newspaper delivery boy became the "investigator". We will be losing our door to door delivery soon and I accept it as part of the evolution of technology. But - It will still be missed.

[segnosaur]

I've already addressed the issue of Canada Post's parcel delivery system. Yes, they are successful at it, and it does turn a profit. I just think its a questionable business decision to keep a successful part of an organization from subsidizing an unsuccessful one.

In the case of lettermail, first class mail, Canada Post has no choice in maintaining the service no matter what. Is that the subsidy you mean?

No, by subsidy I mean taking profits from a successful part of Canada Post's business (parcel delivery) and using it to cover losses in a less successful part of its business (first class mail).

I recognize that because of its mandate, first class mail may (in the future) always lose money, regardless of what management does, and that part of its business may need to be propped up (from either profits from its parcel business, or from some other method). But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't take steps to minimize that loss. Eliminating home delivery is a way to minimize that loss.

[overthere]

I don't think lettermail will lose money, the big increase in rates is intended to offset the requirement to deliver everywhere. Cutting home delivery, which is mostly first class mail, also helps. Break even will do, but I think they still make money on it overall. But they don't have money to plow into subsidizing things like admail, where they go head to head with commerical companies, the ones that deliver flyers. That business is also on the edge, thin margins and perhaps shrinking.

Remember CPC enjoys autonomy on an unwritten premise: don't come begging for money. They've done OK with that, and i some ways are not responsible for what has happened outside their control. What we see now is mostly their response. If their parcel plans don't work out as they must, and lettermail continues to shrink, they will be faced with much bigger problems than a dustup with their unions and some customers.

[Argus]

How many of the 66% currently not receiving home delivery have died?

You mean the ones who don't live in an apartment where they only have to take an elevator, or who don't live in the country, where they're reasonably hale and hearty and have a car?

No one keeps records of such things. Do you doubt that a certain amount of elderly people will die or be seriously hurt going out to get their mail this winter?

[Argus]

Cite

Pretty much any post of yours which mentions unions or public servants will do.

[Argus]

I know many people that don't own a car here. Nice try.

Really? They live in a rural area and don't own a car? What do they eat, grass? There's door-to-door grocery delivery?

Everyone I know in rural areas has multiple cars.

[Argus]

You mean the countries with no growth economies and bankrupt governments?

They were almost all doing better than your glorious land of the free until the last couple of years, some of them still are.

It isn't unions which screw up a country's economy, it's lousy government. Europe has always been heavily unionized and done better than the US for decades.

[Boges]

Pretty much any post of yours which mentions unions or public servants will do.

I'm not a decision maker at Canada Post. I was asking for citation that Canada Post made this decision solely for the reason to eliminate union jobs and not that the system had become antiquated.

It does appear people want to protect these jobs solely because they are good unionized jobs.

[Argus]

The epople I know that don't have cars mostly live in urban situations. They get their mail in the lobby of their building, as they have forever.

If you live in a household delivery neighbourhood, it is likely suburban and there are damn few households who don't have cars there, except perhaps the elderly and disabled.

I don't know why anybody would use a car top pick up at community mailboxes anyway, around here in newer areas they are always within easy walking distance.

There are actually a LOT of people in urban areas who have no access to a car. They can't afford one, or don't drive, or are too old/frail/disabled.

[Smallc]

Really? They live in a rural area and don't own a car? What do they eat, grass? There's door-to-door grocery delivery?

Everyone I know in rural areas has multiple cars.

A lot of elderly and poor people don't. There are a lot of those here.

[Boges]

They were almost all doing better than your glorious land of the free until the last couple of years, some of them still are.

It isn't unions which screw up a country's economy, it's lousy government. Europe has always been heavily unionized and done better than the US for decades.

Ironic you say that because postals services in Europe have largely been privatized.

[Argus]

A lot of elderly and poor people don't. There are a lot of those here.

To repeat, how do they eat? They walk fourteen miles to the nearest store and carry all the groceries home? They walk to the city when they have a medical appointment?

[Smallc]

Not all small towns are that spread out, and they generally have family.

[Shady]

To repeat, how do they eat? They walk fourteen miles to the nearest store and carry all the groceries home? They walk to the city when they have a medical appointment?

And if they want their to be sufficient funds available to cover said medical appointments, then they should be happy with government prioritizing services. There's only so much money to go around.

[Boges]

To repeat, how do they eat? They walk fourteen miles to the nearest store and carry all the groceries home? They walk to the city when they have a medical appointment?

I'm unsure what you're point is here. If you live in the country you probably have the means to get everything delivered to you if you want. INCLUDING getting someone to pick up your mail for you.

What we're talking about here is suburban single family homes. As has been mentioned here before, the upkeep of a single family home is quite high. If people can't walk to a Superbox they likely can't the upkeep of a home without assistance.

If they don't have a car then they probably have to walk to a bus stop to get around.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Boges

[guyser]

To repeat, how do they eat?

They cook some food, put it on a plate and use a knife and fork. Or their hands if its KFC or some such.

They walk fourteen miles to the nearest store and carry all the groceries home? They walk to the city when they have a medical appointment?

Generally in smaller towns, actually anywhere outside the GTA there are community services clubs, private people, all arranging for rides etc.

The Cdn Cancer society will pay gas and a little more for people to be driven in for check ups.

Older people tend to hate the reliance on others that occurs when they get old. Being able to get mail is another nail in that coffin so to speak.

[Shady]

They were almost all doing better than your glorious land of the free until the last couple of years, some of them still are.

It isn't unions which screw up a country's economy, it's lousy government. Europe has always been heavily unionized and done better than the US for decades.

None of them were doing better, except for Germany. All of them have, and have had, stagnant economies and debt to gdp ratios at dangerous levels. Yet you think they can afford it? One what basis?

[Boges]

They cook some food, put it on a plate and use a knife and fork. Or their hands if its KFC or some such.

Generally in smaller towns, actually anywhere outside the GTA there are community services clubs, private people, all arranging for rides etc.

The Cdn Cancer society will pay gas and a little more for people to be driven in for check ups.

Older people tend to hate the reliance on others that occurs when they get old. Being able to get mail is another nail in that coffin so to speak.

Because opening your front door and reaching your hand into a mailbox is so liberating.

[guyser]

Because opening your front door and reaching your hand into a mailbox is so liberating.

Should I mock the inherent stupidity in that sentence? Or are you, as I believe, smarter than that?

Instead of waiting for an answer, the issue is one of independence. Any little thing they can do for themselves serves them well as respects pride.

Anytime...for any reason, they have to pick up the phone and ask for help is denying them a tiny amount of self sufficiency. That generation prides themselves on that.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Guyser2

[guyser]

It may be anecdotal, but my legally blind and deaf mom sure likes getting her mail from the mailbox and the future of having to go to a superbox would be incredibly cruel and hard on her.

That said, she is aware that it may come. So be it. She doesnt think she'll live to see that day but there ya go.

[Boges]

It may be anecdotal, but my legally blind and deaf mom sure likes getting her mail from the mailbox and the future of having to go to a superbox would be incredibly cruel and hard on her.

That said, she is aware that it may come. So be it. She doesnt think she'll live to see that day but there ya go.

Yeah but getting mail delivered to you is not some form of independence.

We've been discussing it would be smart to allow door-to-door delivery to maintained for people who are "shut-in". These people are already reliant on people delivering the staples of life to their home. A blind person is not going to be able to maintain the upkeep of the home without assistance. Why can't that assistance simply be expanded to getting their mail for them?

It certainly would be a more pragmatic solution than maintaining service to an entire community because of the handful of people that might not be able to walk or drive to a community box.

[segnosaur]

You mean the ones who don't live in an apartment where they only have to take an elevator, or who don't live in the country, where they're reasonably hale and hearty and have a car?

No one keeps records of such things. Do you doubt that a certain amount of elderly people will die or be seriously hurt going out to get their mail this winter?

Is "zero" considered an amount?

Seriously, how many times has it been pointed out to you that if an individual lives in a single family home that they already have the ability to maintain their house (either through their own effort, or through using other people). An elderly person who can get someone to cut their grass and shovel their walk can easily hire someone to pick up their mail.

Or are you going to continually resort to appeals to emotion rather than logic?

It isn't unions which screw up a country's economy, it's lousy government. Europe has always been heavily unionized and done better than the US for decades.

Facts say otherwise.

For example, take unemployment (one of the key elements of the econdomy.) Between between 2000-2005 (a time period of over half a decade), the U.S. economy had an unemployment rate between 4% and 6%. In the same time period, the unemployment rate in Europe maxed out at over 8% for men, and even higher for women.

And what about this decade? The U.S. started with an unemployment rate of 9.6% but that dropped to under 8% within 3 years. In europe? Started at around the same level, then went up to almost 11%

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/File:Unemployment_rates_by_gender,_EU,_seasonally_adjusted,_January_2000_-_August_2014.png

So no, there are examples showing that "heavily unionized europe" was not doing better than the U.S., and in some measures was doing significantly worse.

[segnosaur]

It may be anecdotal, but my legally blind and deaf mom sure likes getting her mail from the mailbox and the future of having to go to a superbox would be incredibly cruel and hard on her.

Ummm... how does she mow the lawn? Shovel the drive way? Get rid of any woodchucks living on her lawn porch? Drag away the bodies of any Jehovahs witnesses from her porch? Or do any number of those little tasks that are necessary for living in a single family home?

Is there any reason she can't ask the person mowing the lawn or getting rid of the Jehovas witnesses to pop down to the mailbox for her?