jacee Posted January 10, 2015 Report Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) You mean even more than it is now? If the ICC and UN were really effective, you'd see most of our leaders behind bars. Have you referred anyone to the ICC? There's a process involved. It doesn't happen by magic. http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/Pages/situations%20and%20cases.aspx 21 cases in 9 situations have been brought before the International Criminal Court. Pursuant to the Rome Statute, the Prosecutor can initiate an investigation on the basis of a referral from any State Party or from the United Nations Security Council. In addition, the Prosecutor can initiate investigations proprio motu on the basis of information on crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court received from individuals or organisations (communications). Edited January 10, 2015 by jacee Quote
Rue Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 When responding Hudson Jones, you accused someone of having a fear towards justice and equality. One might conclude from this comment you are now able to psycho-emotionally profile people by reading their opinions. However you have made no effort to define let alone compare your opinion of justice and equality, the alleged fearful person's opinion as to justice and equality and then explain how you were able to derive from that comparison the emotional profile you did. So with respect, I find your comment on fear and justice and equality confusing and would state they appear to try draw attention back to you, an unstated opinion you might have and this claim you cause fear in others. I do believe the thread was about the creation of the Palestinian Unity government not your fear inducing capabilities. If by some chance you were referring to the PA signing on to certain treaties and are suggesting this frightens Israel, I can only state, your conclusion is of course without any stated basis and appears a subjective perception you have thrown out that appears to suggest Israel fears justice and equality which of course would be consistent with many other unsubstantiated disparaging descriptions you throw out at Israel and only serve to remind you use these discussions as a platform to try insult Israel. Quote
Rue Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) delete Edited January 11, 2015 by Rue Quote
jbg Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 Here's an answer: Israel can join the ICC and do any of those things it wants. It isn't up to someone else to do it for them. . Do you really think that the head of Hamas would stand for ICC trial? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jacee Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) Do you really think that the head of Hamas would stand for ICC trial?Do you really think Israel slaughtering Palestinian children is a better 'tactic'?Israell is still tracking down war criminals for doing that to their children, and rightly so. I would think international justice would be the right approach. . Edited January 12, 2015 by jacee Quote
PIK Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 But it is ok for the palstines to kill jews and its children. The palstines are being yused by their arab brothers as cannon fodder against Israel, and until you people get it, there will never be peace. Israel is not going anywhere. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
jbg Posted January 13, 2015 Report Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Do you really think Israel slaughtering Palestinian children is a better 'tactic'?If children are used as human shields should Israel just give in and stop fighting? Israell is still tracking down war criminals for doing that to their children, and rightly so.And always will. I would think international justice would be the right approach.The obvious problem is that Israel and other democracies are subject to press and otehr scrutiny. They are under real pressure to conform to any treaties they sign. Hamas, ISIS, the PA, not so much. .Why is this extra "period" in all of your posts? Edited January 13, 2015 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jacee Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 If children are used as human shields should Israel just give in and stop fighting?Stop overreacting by slaughtering children. And always will. The obvious problem is that Israel and other democracies are subject to press and otehr scrutiny. They are under real pressure to conform to any treaties they sign. Hamas, ISIS, the PA, not so much. State status and membership in the ICC address that.. Quote
jbg Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 Stop overreacting by slaughtering children. State status and membership in the ICC address that. How? The same way the Taliban turned over Osama bin Laden to avoid the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan? Oh I forget, that never happened. I guess the Taliban didn't care about unnecessary deaths. .Why the extra "period" in each of your posts? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jacee Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) How? The same way the Taliban turned over Osama bin Laden to avoid the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan? Oh I forget, that never happened. I guess the Taliban didn't care about unnecessary deaths. And Israel aspires to be like the Taliban? Is that your point? Why the extra "period" in each of your posts?Why not?. Edited January 14, 2015 by jacee Quote
Rue Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 Jacee things in the Middle East do not happen in a vacuum. You choose to see IDF mistakes or excessive force. So do I. The difference is I do not see only them. I also see the actions of Hamas or other terror cells as well, and the inter-connection. The fact is in war, bad things happen and if you only want to look at who you think is your enemy, and not look to the people who you think are your allies or the "freedom fighters" you will miss the point. In war no one is good or bad. Everyone is eventually turned into a killer or killed if people like you and I do not move past the rigid confines of our own beliefs and reach out to the other side. You are too angry to reach out, and I already have. I already found Palestinians no different than I. You from what it sounds have never met anyone who was in the IDF. Until you do and speak to them, you won't get what I am saying. What you are so convinced is an IDF monster is reflection of your own face coming back through their eyes. I doubt that will make any sense to you. One day it will. By total accident it will be your destiny to learn Jews and Muslims, Palestinians and Israelis, bleed and blow up the exact same way. The lesson will come in something totally unrelated. Until then I do not doubt you will find it more tempting to see the world in black and whites and convince yourself the Middle East is a simple equation. Its not and it never was. When people get blood on their hands not all of them chant a religious prayer of thanks and feel empowered to continue killing. Some keep washing their hands rubbing all the skin off and die still trying to wash it out. Quote
Big Guy Posted January 16, 2015 Author Report Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) It appears that the International Criminal Court has decided that there is enough preliminary evidence to begin an inquiry into the Israeli actions in the latest Gaza invasion. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/icc-probe-possible-war-crimes-palestine-2015116151720780168.html Prosecutors at the Hague are opening that investigation. This is the first step that could lead to charges against Israel. Israeli Foreign Minister Lieberman rejected the process and suggested that Israel may not cooperate with the probe. Israel had already withheld money from the Palestinians as a punitive action and has asked the USA to follow suit. It will be interesting to see if the Americans are ready to be seen by the rest of the world as punishing the Palestinians for trying to seek justice through an impartial world court. I do not think that the USA will take the Israeli lead. Edited January 16, 2015 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
dre Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 It appears that the International Criminal Court has decided that there is enough preliminary evidence to begin an inquiry into the Israeli actions in the latest Gaza invasion. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/icc-probe-possible-war-crimes-palestine-2015116151720780168.html Prosecutors at the Hague are opening that investigation. This is the first step that could lead to charges against Israel. Israeli Foreign Minister Lieberman rejected the process and suggested that Israel may not cooperate with the probe. Israel had already withheld money from the Palestinians as a punitive action and has asked the USA to follow suit. It will be interesting to see if the Americans are ready to be seen by the rest of the world as punishing the Palestinians for trying to seek justice through an impartial world court. I do not think that the USA will take the Israeli lead. Thats good, it should investigate both sides. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) The U.S. has already threatened to reduce foreign aid to Palestinians, without any worries about what the "rest of the world" sees or thinks. American support for Israel has increased, while support for Palestine has decreased. I wonder if Palestine is ready to be seen as anything different than a failed experiment with rocket attacks, suicide bombings, and murders of Israelis. In March 2011, there were threats to cut off aid for the PA if it continued to move forward on a unity government with Hamas, unless Hamas formally renounced violence, recognized Israel, and accepted previous Israel-Palestinian agreements.[56]Azzam Ahmed, spokesman for Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas responded by stating that the PA was willing to give up financial aid in order to achieve unity, "Palestinians need American money, but if they use it as a way of pressuring us, we are ready to relinquish that aid. Edited January 16, 2015 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Big Guy Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Posted January 17, 2015 To dre - I agree with you completely. My assumption is that the tribunal, if impartial, will look at what the Palestinians did and what the Israelis did. My position has always been that justice must be served. Let the international community investigate and judge objectively the actions of the Palestinians and the Israelis and accord blame accordingly. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Big Guy Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Posted January 17, 2015 The USA has jumped into the fray. It has condemned the ICC choice to start investigations as "counterproductive to the course for peace". The USA and Israel are two of the few countries of the world which have not signed on to the Rome Statute - the creation of the International Criminal Court. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/us-israel-criticise-icc-war-crimes-probe-2015117114137630910.html It appears that the Palestinians have given up on getting a fair deal from the USA and have decided to look to the international community. It will be interesting how the USA explains the attempt to get justice for over 2,000 Palestinian civilians killed becomes "counterproductive to the course for peace". I guess the Americans feel the Palestinians should just "suck it up", accept periodic attacks from Israel and go along with an American plan for "peace". The USA is still sticking with Israel but Canada should be looking elsewhere (like Iran) for allies in that region. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
jacee Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Jacee things in the Middle East do not happen in a vacuum. You choose to see IDF mistakes or excessive force. So do I. The difference is I do not see only them. I also see the actions of Hamas or other terror cells as well, and the inter-connection. http://www.toonpool.com/user/1631/files/hamasochism_1853345.jpg Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 The USA has jumped into the fray. It has condemned the ICC choice to start investigations as "counterproductive to the course for peace". The USA and Israel are two of the few countries of the world which have not signed on to the Rome Statute - the creation of the International Criminal Court. Not a very big surprise....the ICC is a biased international joke as described above. The USA is not obligated to support Palestinian claims against an allied nation that Hamas and other groups have repeatedly attacked. I hope the U.S. president and Congress reduce aid to Palestine even further. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Rue Posted January 18, 2015 Report Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) If the ICJ is to have any jurisdiction to investigate the last war between Hamas and Israel, Palestine has to be a state. Without it being a state, the ICJ has no jurisdiction. The PA now argues it gained the sufficient state status to now give the ICJ authority. The ICJ can not investigate Israel's actions in the last war without also investigating the actions of Hamas and all other Palestinian terror cells that were attacking Israel from the West Bank. It also may not have jurisdiction at all because if Israel can show it already investigated its war actions in its own courts, the ICJ technically can not superceded or override those decisions. It can only act if Israel never investigated its own war actions in court and so before any ICJ kangaroo court, Israel would make a referral to its own Supreme Court thereby vitiating jurisdiction of the ICJ. Then complicating matters there is no precedent for how a military should defend its people against terrorists in any court of international standing. That in itself will palce l feel a great deal of pressure on the ICJ by Europe and the US so as to assure it does not set any clear rules and limitations against fighting terrorists because to do so would trigger off unintended limitations to the West in their war against terrorists, not just challenge the right of Israel to defend itself against terrorists. At this point the EU and the US do not want any ruling against Israel that could come back to haunt them fighting Muslim terrorists. So the political reality of the PA getting some victory at the ICJ is not going to happen although no doubt they can spin anything they want to come up with any result. Its what they do. Even when they get meaningless resolutions passed that aren't binding they act as if they have legality. What the PA really wants is to use the ICJ to make a ruling saying Israel can not defend itself. The PA is blinded by an agenda that believes Israel can not and should not have a right to fight back against terrorists. In real life and in international law, the court can not create a legal precedent that Israel can't defend itself against terrorists or attacks with missiles.The furthest it could go is to criticize certain tactics but not the right to defend. The fact that Israel sent early warnings to civilians before attacks can not be ignored by the UCJ nor the role of Hamas in deliberately placing their own civilians in harm's way after shooting missiles. In politics and on this board, partisan anti Israeli posters will ignore the role Hamas plays in placing its own civilians in the line of fire but in a court of law, that has to be considered. The PA is hoping for a partisan decision that ignores what Hamas did relying on the hope that the adjudicators will be people they can pick and who have a predisposition against Israel. Some of the prosecutors and Judges proposed so far have pronounced anti Israel political biases expressed in written materials now in public domain raising apprehension of bias that could render any decision meaningless. So far the ICJ has limited itself to certain African war criminals only. It hasn't gone near the Crimean investigation in Ukraine just as it stayed away from the former Yusoslavia war, Chinese invasion of Tibet, invasion of Iraq by the US, invasion of Afghanistan by Western coalition forces, Iran and Turkey into the area where Kurds live in Iraq, and now Syrian war and anti terror war in Iraq and Syria. It did make some rulings over a Cambodia-Thailand border dispute. It has been blatantly silent over the genocide and mass killings in Sudan, Rwanda, Malawi, Burundi, Mail,Nigeria, Central African Republic, Liberia, Ivory Coast, Senegal,Dahomey, Chad, Niger, Libya and area formerly called the Spanish Sahara that Morrocco invaded and is silent about Nigeria. The PA of course has always believed it is the only legal conflict going on in this world and they successfully managed to lobby the UN to create a special definition of refugee for "Palestinians" that extends to alleged descendants of refugees and not the displaced refugees themselves, a definition no other displaced refugee;' descendant's are given. The PA also has reason to believe that since the UN has allowed its UN Refugee Commission to act in a politically partisan manner against Israel allowing its buildings to be used as military attack sites and depots for Hamas, that it should gain a favourable ruling figuring it controls the UN against Israel and therefore its ICJ which has already made an advisory ruling without any court action condemning the Israeli security wall. The ICJ said the security wall was illegal and was not needed to defend against terrorists. So the PA figures they will use the same reasoning to say anything Israel did in the last war was not necessary. Ironically since that security all went up the no. of terror attacks clearly was reduced and there is no way Israel will take down that wall until years have gone by and the Palestinians have disbanded their terrorists and abandon their dream of taking back Israel. That just is not in their agenda. The ICJ has already ruled the settlements in the West Bank are illegal. It can't say that in Gaza the Israelis were pulled out. As well the ICJ would not as the PA hoped and Turkey hoped rule that Israel can't put a naval blockade on Hamas. Edited January 18, 2015 by Rue Quote
jbg Posted January 18, 2015 Report Posted January 18, 2015 It appears that the International Criminal Court has decided that there is enough preliminary evidence to begin an inquiry into the Israeli actions in the latest Gaza invasion. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/icc-probe-possible-war-crimes-palestine-2015116151720780168.html Prosecutors at the Hague are opening that investigation. This is the first step that could lead to charges against Israel. Israeli Foreign Minister Lieberman rejected the process and suggested that Israel may not cooperate with the probe. Israel had already withheld money from the Palestinians as a punitive action and has asked the USA to follow suit. Are they going to investigate the funding sources for the Charlie Hebdo murderers? It will be interesting to see if the Americans are ready to be seen by the rest of the world as punishing the Palestinians for trying to seek justice through an impartial world court. I do not think that the USA will take the Israeli lead.In my opinion there may be a role for the ICC albeit a very limited one. And even that I'm not sure about. The ICC should maybe get involved in situations similar to the end of WW II, where the conquered countries did not adhere to rule of law. Perhaps if North Korea falls the ICC should be involved. It should not evolve into a "tyranny of the majority" similar to the U.N. General Assembly. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jacee Posted January 18, 2015 Report Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) /baird-you-are-not-welcome-in-palestine-protesters-hurl-eggs-and-shoes-at-canadas-foreign-minister Why is Harper creating more division instead of supporting initiatives that can lead to a better balance of power in negotiations and has a better chance of achieving lasting negotiated peace? /it-is-john-baird-who-needs-to-apologize-to-the-palestinian-people/ Edited January 18, 2015 by jacee Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 18, 2015 Report Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) One question for Conservatives. Does Israel really support the position of Europe and North America on Ukraine? I can't imagine Netanyahu confronting Putin on this matter. http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-diplomats-nix-drone-sale-to-ukraine-report/ It seems to me that Harper and Bibi have agreed to disagree on this issue and not mention the difference. Edited January 18, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland Quote
jacee Posted January 19, 2015 Report Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) kinda off topic here spanky. ISRAEL DEMANDS ... Israel is lobbying member states of the International Criminal Court to cut funding for the tribunal in response to its launch of an inquiry into possible war crimes in Palestine, the countrys foreign minister said Sunday. ... We will demand of our friends in Canada, in Australia and in Germany simply to stop funding it, he told Israel Radio. Officials told Reuters the lobbying effort would also target Japan, whose Prime Minister Shinzo Abe is visiting Israel. - See more at: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2015/Jan-19/284559-israel-lobbies-foreign-powers-to-cut-icc-funding.ashx#sthash.KlojsY9h.dpuf Israel will "demand" ... !? And the childish hissy fits continue. Will Israel ever grow up into a mature state? Remains to be seen. . Edited January 19, 2015 by jacee Quote
eyeball Posted January 19, 2015 Report Posted January 19, 2015 Why is Harper creating more division instead of supporting initiatives that can lead to a better balance of power in negotiations and has a better chance of achieving lasting negotiated peace? I'm sure it's not the only reason, but peace in the ME does run counter to his personal religious beliefs. That said this will also be one of the main reasons people of his ilk act or fail to act if and when push comes to shove. It's a sad fact but we should never discount just how much deliberate lack of desire for real lasting peace in the region there is that exists outside the region and you know what they say about how little bad will it takes to undo good. I'm convinced peace really is a lost cause myself but probably more for ecological/economic reasons...natural as opposed to super-natural. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
jacee Posted January 19, 2015 Report Posted January 19, 2015 I'm sure it's not the only reason, but peace in the ME does run counter to his personal religious beliefs. That said this will also be one of the main reasons people of his ilk act or fail to act if and when push comes to shove. Can you clarify?. Quote
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