War Against ISIL

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2014

Nope sorry. Neither of the grenades that are clearly visible looks like the one you have shown.

Furthermore there are other weapons. As well I posted another link, each in support of the other.

WWWTT

Actually the first box at the ~40ish mark is full of loose Soviet F1 grenades (minus the fuse/spoons), the box at the 1:08 mark are Eastern Bloc (50mm?) mortar rounds, and the ones at the 1:40 mark with the flat bottoms appear to be South African M963s (Didn't watch the entire video before), which are based off a World War II era US design, but the grenades in the video don't have an additional (Jungle) safety on the spoon (as clearly shown at 1:42) which is standard on American grenades since Vietnam...............

None the less, as I said above, these could very well be donated munitions from former Warsaw Pact (now NATO) nations, and they could have been dropped by US aircraft, intended for the Kurds and picked up by ISIS..... but I fail to see why in your view this changes the debate.

Big Guy · November 17, 2014

The latest video released by the ISIS propaganda regime shows the ludicrous position that Canadians have placed ourselves into:

The American guy who got his head cut off - BOOO!!

Those 13 Syrian fighters backing Assad who got their heads lopped off - HOORAY !!!!!

Are these 13 Syrian guys not our enemy?

Who are our enemy???

We are being played like a fine fiddle!

WWWTT · November 17, 2014

None the less, as I said above, these could very well be donated munitions from former Warsaw Pact (now NATO) nations, and they could have been dropped by US aircraft, intended for the Kurds and picked up by ISIS..... but I fail to see why in your view this changes the debate.

Sounds like you doubt the legitimacy of the claims made in the links I provided.

And when someone provides clips of beheading clips allegedly committed by this group, there's no doubt that it's legit???

WWWTT

Derek 2.0 · November 17, 2014

Sounds like you doubt the legitimacy of the claims made in the links I provided.

And when someone provides clips of beheading clips allegedly committed by this group, there's no doubt that it's legit???

WWWTT

No, I can't fathom why you feel this changes the debate.........ISIS is using all sorts of captured equipment.

ReeferMadness · November 17, 2014

There are many reasons and the issue is complex. But the primary reason is religious ideology. But recognizing the role of religion is simply taboo in western politics, which is why I doubt things will get any better over the next few years.

Exactly.

Exactly. As in you have it exactly backwards.

Religious extremism isn't the cause, it's the result. War, extreme poverty, starvation, humiliation - these are all factors that create the breeding grounds for the extremist views that result in extreme violence. People latch on to whatever belief system that is convenient and twist it to support their actions. Often, that is religion because religion is so prevalent as a deeply held system of beliefs. But not always.

When the Nazis rose, they didn't need religion, they had Aryan supremacy. The communists despised religion and used Marxism to justify their actions.

Rue · November 18, 2014

With due respect Reefer because your point is well stated but I respectfully disagree in the specific case of the Middle East. To understand it as -1 has stated yes its complex but at the pith and substance is religion that was entrenched long before the West came about.

In modern times certainly the intervention of the British, French, Ottoman Empire, Germans, then Russians and Americans have all exasperated tensions of course. In modern times or to be precise since Britain and France engaged in the Picot agreement to create 4 artificial states to prop their empires, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq and then later Saudi Arabia, these states created new internal tensions. Yes we know the reincarnation of Iran in the 20th century was a British invention to. The Nazis, Italy, Russia, China, everyone has mixed in trying to protect their oil interests.

However and with due respect to you, your analysis falls short by thousands of years and you would have to journey back to ancient Israel and the Arabian peninsula and learn a lot more about the history of the peoples in those ancient kingdoms to understand the roots of today's tensions aswell.

Here is my respectful response to your opinion following up o -1's which I have agreed with many times when he has written in, in previous posts on the Middle East.

In my personal opinion we can state that at one level we must remember we humans are primates. As such we are pack animals. We travel in packs and enforce our territorial imperative through alpha males who lead our packs.Not much has changed since we had more hair on our bodies and packs with different colouring in their fur would fight each other for territory and mates to impregnate.

In our case we tried to create religion, a set of rules, to make us more civil. Our rules or religion tried to do several things. First and foremost repress our primal tendencies to engage in incest, rape, murder, cannibalism. If we did not learn to repress these urges as well as our violent urges we could not survive and organize.

So religions started to repress these urges and build society through the building black of family units designed to work with one another not kill each other.

That is the story of religion. All the religions of the Middle East tried to do this and depending on which religion or codified set of rules you followed, determined the name of your pack and who you swore allegiance to.

The Middle East was about tribes who came about by following internal codes not to kill each other within their tribe but had not mastered practicing that same code with other tribes. It really is that simple but complex.

To understand the Middle East and pretty much elsewhere on this planet in terms of Global conflict is to witness tribes or packs fighting each other for territory.

The pagan religions came and went and then came the followers of Abraham who in fact came from the Zoroastians and same forefathers as the Hindus carrying the same beliefs.

There were basic formations of religion. Some chose the multi-God model others the single God model and many, i.e., over 80 or so, the son of God model sent to save the world.

The original forefathers of these religions spoke in abstract terms of God being an energy form that constantly changed shape as it evolved. We humans were defined as conduits of this energy and how we chose to pass that energy through our free thought determined whether that energy would translate into positive or negative consequences.

The average person found that too abstract to handle and turned to personification as a device to make God understandable-i.e., God was turned into a human form or a human like form to explain how it worked.

The religions of the Middle East originate from the same source but they diverged and mutated.

At the very centre of the current conflict in the Middle East is the belief in Islam that anyone who does not follow the words of Muhhamed who interprets the one God Allah is a khifir or dhimmi. If one does not accept only the words of Muhammed, they are going to hell, they are infidel. This is the entire pith and substance of sharia law in Muslim nations which does not separate religion from state and therefore defines a non Muslim in these states as a dhimmi or khafir, an inferior not equal in status and not entitled to the same laws.

For you to say this is not at the pith and substance of the present conflict is just not true. If you are a member of Hamas, or Intifada Palestine, or faah Hawks/eagles, Al Quaeda,Taliban/ISIL, AL Nusra, Hezbollah, on and on (there are over 1,0000 such cells, each constantly forming alliances then breaking down, and forming new alliances) at the pith and substance of your beliefs is the belief in Islam and the belief that until the world is all under one Muslim state (caliphate) ruled by one Muslim religious council, the world can not be healed.

This religion is a fuel. It brings with it the belief that when people die they become martyrs and go to heaven blessed with virgins surrounding themselves and a wonderful after life.

In the Muslim world, illiteracy is still prevalent which means the majority of Muslims depend on their Mullah/Imam to tell them how to think and believe.

Islam has many many sects. Some violent, some moderate, some peaceful but others hell bent on violence and war and who believe terrorism and the slaughter, rape and sexual slavery of non believers including children is justified.

No its not a matter of poverty. Osama Ben Laden and many of the leaders of these terror cells were not poor, on the contrary,spoiled, elite rich children brought up as Princes who know one dared say no to. As they grew up, unchallenged and with no limitations thinking they were Princes, they found their sense of entitlement being questioned and their terrorism in fact can be explained as a form of a tantrum, the spoiled outburst of pampered children who could no longer have their way.

In the Middle East, corruption, military dictatorships and brutal secret police have always formed an alliance with the religious clergy of their countries.

In that respect they are no different then what happened in the Christian world. In the Christian world corrupt monarchies and regimes were also propped by religious figures and like Islam, the Christians before them were just as violent and instead of Muhammed preached, if you did not follow the words of Jesus, you were going to hell and like Muslims, created Christian states that condemned, tortured and terrorized the non believers no different than the Muslim sharia law states.

Like the Jews, Christians have had time to evolve past their original forms of brutal military states bent on war to survive. Both religious groups evolved. Their religions mutated into many versions or sects. Islam being younger is probably about where Christianity was during the Middle Ages.

Whether it can evolve past its current state of religious beliefs to one more conducive to tolerance of non Muslims, remains to be seen.

The point is Muslims have been slaughtering non Muslims since their religion organized and today's war is just a continuation of the crusades and even long before that.

To think you can simply dismiss this as poverty is not accurate. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE are far from impoverished. Their religious structures which control their monarchies and governments are not based on poverty they are based on using Islam to justify control of the masses.

Your take on Europe is also a bit distorted. One of the very reasons there was a revolution in Russia was a reaction to the stranglehold of the Russian Orthodox Church on the masses in its alliance with the Czars.

In fact most political conflicts have a religious element and a rejection of organized religion of the day in the seeds of their dissent. Marxism was an atheist reaction to Christianity. Mao Tse Tung's version of it was as much a dismissal of Western capitalism as it was religion. He bitterly denounced Shintoism,Taoism, Bhuddism, Christianity and Islam in his nation as reactionary and counter-revolutionary. All Marxists used the term, that religion was the opiate of the masses, a tool to control them all.

So with due respect, to understand what fuels Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, all these cells who are in conflict with the West today, you need to spend time reading their religions and understanding the origins of these religions.

Also understand something else. Each day, thousands of Muslims are born into what you call poverty. You call it poverty because compared to you these people don't have running water, any or even steady electricity. They have no sewage systems. Compared to your standards they look poor and dirty and you think they are victims who turn to violence.

They are not victims and they do not need you using such references and assuming they are, let alone they turn to violence.

I know such people. I lived with them. I worked with them. They are not victims.Many chose to come out of these environments like some of your ancestors did, and make something of themselves whether it be a doctor,scientist, store owner, shepherd,farmer. They did not choose violence. They did not ask for it and they do not want their children engaging in it.

These people do not all mindlessly flock to terrorism because they are what you think is poor.

What your Western materialistic view sees is distorted. You judge them by their lack of Coca Cola, Big Macs and shopping malls and think this makes them angry, No. This they are victims lashing out concept is the creation of privileged Western children justifying others who they think want to be just like them. Its an adolescent view of the world where everyone wants to be like you and if they can't will get violent.

It rationalizes terrorism and violence as understandable, i.e., caused by poverty.

Its wrong. Its wrong because as many or more people come from such environments and are not terrorists. Its wrong because as well, many terrorists and criminals come from privileged environments.

I would argue when people turn to violence regardless of their culture or religion, its because they are not in touch with basic, simple spiritual values or as some would say the basic religious values, i.e., the belief that life is sacred, that we all through our free choice can choose to heal or injure the world through our decisions, that we can choose to forgive, share, cooperate, or hate, condemn and judge.

Those are very basic, simple concepts of all religions and when societies go into conflict the level of poverty may in certain cases exasperate people and turn them to despair but it does not automatically turn people to terror.

Jews did not engage in terrorism in Europe or the Middle East for thousands of years when they were persecuted. Neither did Christians during their original years when they had to hide and remain underground.

When Jews could have felt God abandon them and many did after the holocaust, they did not renounce their religion or values. Christianity is full of stories of Christians who felt betrayed by God but did not renounce their religion. That was the whole point of the story of Abraham-a story about testing one's basic beliefs.

There have been violent people who have used their religions to justify terror and they will continue to do so but they are a minority. They have never been the majority. They manipulate, they make the most noise it seems, they dominate through fear and violence, but they are not the majority and eventually they combust.

As many terror cells that come to be, are those that implode.

You also need to understand one thing. As tough as some may think terrorists are..they are not. You can romanticize them as victims of poverty fighting back but they are not. They are cowards. They are people who had tantrums when things did not work out their way. They chose to have tantrums. They fight behind walls and masks. They use children, pregnant women, elders, the sick, the mentally ill and disabled as shields to protect themselves.

They have contempt for their own people. They sneer at concepts such as tolerance or freedom. Understand a terrorist is a spoiled frightened child afraid of the world they see as hostile and unforgiving. The terrorist is someone who feels entitled and privileged and creates a pack of like minded elitists demanding others serve them.

Terrorism is religion. Its about a religious leader, spewing religious concepts as the very glue that keeps these cells together and to justify their killings, violence and elitism. Its a drug stronger than cocaine or adrenalin. It numbs the pain. It keeps people awake for days on end in a frenzy.

By the way you really need to find out what Nazism is. At its pith and substance was a bastardization of Christian and Hindu concepts. It needed both to be created. It also needed the religion of Judaism to fuel it. Without its hatred of Judaism it could not have grown and spread and become so popular cross Europe. It had the cooperation of many elders and officials in many churches.

It also required imprisoning and killing Christians who denounced their own religious leaders for cooperating with Hitler.

Big Guy · November 18, 2014

In any disagreement there are two sides; The side which is correct and the side doing all the talking.

I have always tried to use quality over quantity - it encourages others to listen or read.

Argus · November 18, 2014

Sounds like you doubt the legitimacy of the claims made in the links I provided.

Yes, anyone sane would.

Argus · November 18, 2014

Religious extremism isn't the cause, it's the result. War, extreme poverty, starvation, humiliation - these are all factors that create the breeding grounds for the extremist views that result in extreme violence.

Odd, then, that only among Muslims is the religious factor so prominent...

The_Squid · November 18, 2014

Exactly. As in you have it exactly backwards.

Religious extremism isn't the cause, it's the result. War, extreme poverty, starvation, humiliation - these are all factors that create the breeding grounds for the extremist views that result in extreme violence. People latch on to whatever belief system that is convenient and twist it to support their actions. Often, that is religion because religion is so prevalent as a deeply held system of beliefs. But not always.

When the Nazis rose, they didn't need religion, they had Aryan supremacy. The communists despised religion and used Marxism to justify their actions.

This isn't always the case.... the 9/11 suicide hijackers were not impoverished at all.

Yes, there are other factors that cause people to become terrorists other than a religion. But I don't think it's a simple to say that "it's not the religion, it's all these other factors"... it is also the religion and the religious leaders that are the problem.

jbg · November 18, 2014

Exactly. As in you have it exactly backwards.

Religious extremism isn't the cause, it's the result. War, extreme poverty, starvation, humiliation - these are all factors that create the breeding grounds for the extremist views that result in extreme violence. People latch on to whatever belief system that is convenient and twist it to support their actions. Often, that is religion because religion is so prevalent as a deeply held system of beliefs. But not always.

Do you mean to say that back in the days of the Silk Road and the depredations on traders (that ultimately forced trade to the sea0 the Muslims were the victims of "war, extreme poverty, starvation, humiliation"?

WWWTT · November 18, 2014

When the Nazis rose, they didn't need religion, they had Aryan supremacy. The communists despised religion and used Marxism to justify their actions.

LOL!

You forgot the mother of all religions Money/greed/capitalism!

That's why the US is there in the first place!

WWWTT

ReeferMadness · November 19, 2014

This isn't always the case.... the 9/11 suicide hijackers were not impoverished at all.

Yes, there are other factors that cause people to become terrorists other than a religion. But I don't think it's a simple to say that "it's not the religion, it's all these other factors"... it is also the religion and the religious leaders that are the problem.

I didn't say it was always the case, I said it created the breeding ground. Humans are tribal by nature and religion is a creator of large tribes. Whenever there is a dispute (and most often disputes have some economic element), the fights start. And tribal belongings provide a natural fault line. Every belief system has its extremists - and those extremists can be drawn from the rich as well as the poor. However, it usually takes some strong motivating force (like, say, imminent starvation) to drive the moderate masses to listen to the extremists.

Major religions teach peace and tolerance but in any religion you can find the fundamentalists who will discover the passages that meet their needs.

ReeferMadness · November 19, 2014

Do you mean to say that back in the days of the Silk Road and the depredations on traders (that ultimately forced trade to the sea0 the Muslims were the victims of "war, extreme poverty, starvation, humiliation"?

I mean to say you should study up on the crusades.

ReeferMadness · November 19, 2014

Odd, then, that only among Muslims is the religious factor so prominent...

Factor so prominently in what, exactly? Spit it out.

jbg · November 19, 2014

I mean to say you should study up on the crusades.

What do the Crusades directed towards Jerusalem have to do with attacks on travelers and traders thousands of miles away? Surely YouTube was in it s infancy then.

Big Guy · November 23, 2014

Good news - Canadian planes are now hitting bigger targets in Iraq and the coalition boasts that it is "blunting the ISIS expansion". That means that we are now slowing down the advance of ISIS troops.

Bad news - When our military was asked if there were any civilian casualties they stated that "they did not know". How many more suicide bombers are we creating with those bombs?

http://www.ft.com/ig/sites/2014/isis-map/

There is serious talk that far more ground troops are needed and that the Canadian mission is going to last a lot longer than anticipated. Our government "has not ruled out" sending planes into Syrian space. Americans are pouring more ground troops in. How soon till Canada sends in more armed "trainers and advisors"? Look familiar?

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Big Guy

On Guard for Thee · November 23, 2014

Good news - Canadian planes are now hitting bigger targets in Iraq and the coalition boasts that it is "blunting the ISIS expansion". That means that we are now slowing down the advance of ISIS troops.

Bad news - When our military was asked if there were any civilian casualties they stated that "they did not know". How many more suicide bombers are we creating with those bombs?

http://www.ft.com/ig/sites/2014/isis-map/

There is serious talk that far more ground troops are needed and that the Canadian mission is going to last a lot longer than anticipated. Our government "has not ruled out" sending planes into Syrian space. Americans are pouring more ground troops in. How soon till Canada sends in more armed "trainers and advisors"? Look familiar?

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

Apparently you are putting words into our military's mouth. Tom Lawson's claimed in an interview just this am that he is confident there have been no civilian casualties because they have ratcheted up the "no go" criteria for launching ordnance to the level of "there must be no doubt" before pulling the trigger.

Michael Hardner · November 23, 2014

Apparently you are putting words into our military's mouth. Tom Lawson's claimed in an interview just this am that he is confident there have been no civilian casualties because they have ratcheted up the "no go" criteria for launching ordnance to the level of "there must be no doubt" before pulling the trigger.

Please provide a cite. I tried to actually find one for you but couldn't.

Derek 2.0 · November 23, 2014

Please provide a cite. I tried to actually find one for you but couldn't.

It was mentioned prior to the start of our involvement in Iraq, and is a reflection of the rules of engagement put in place by the coalition presently there, likewise used in both Libya and Afghanistan....for what its worth, I briefly looked for a media cite to no end, but I do remember an interview with Lawson on P&P covering exactly that around the timeframe of Trudeau's Hornet remarks and leading up to the vote in the House.

Big Guy · November 23, 2014

My statement was based on the report presented by our military on CTV as to the success of our latest mission in Iraq. A warehouse and another structure were reported to have been destroyed and when asked about casualties, that was where the "we do not know" response was made. If we recall, in Afghanistan there were instances of Western forces bombing targets identified by locals who had a grudge against another village and were using Western forces to take out those neighbors.

I have no reason to question what Derek 2.0 posts and also do not wish to argue his opinions. He is entitled to his as I am to mine. I respect his research and his views.

My point was and is that this latest expedition is progressing and escalating the same way as Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Mission creep is setting in with no one questioning why the heck we are there.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

Derek 2.0 · November 23, 2014

My statement was based on the report presented by our military on CTV as to the success of our latest mission in Iraq. A warehouse and another structure were reported to have been destroyed and when asked about casualties, that was where the "we do not know" response was made. If we recall, in Afghanistan there were instances of Western forces bombing targets identified by locals who had a grudge against another village and were using Western forces to take out those neighbors.

In past instances, that could very well be true (when the West isn't bombing baby food/medicine factories, places of worship, wedding/funeral parties and schools full of children), but presently in Iraq, allied forces are relying heavily upon their own ISR assets, such as UAVs, dedicated aircraft (like our CP-140s) and special forces on the ground to provide real-time telemetry targeting data for strike aircraft.

eyeball · November 23, 2014

In past instances, that could very well be true (when the West isn't bombing baby food/medicine factories, places of worship, wedding/funeral parties and schools full of children), but presently in Iraq, allied forces are relying heavily upon their own ISR assets, such as UAVs, dedicated aircraft (like our CP-140s) and special forces on the ground to provide real-time telemetry targeting data for strike aircraft.

So how much is this all costing?

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

A gold-plated Stradivarius apparently.

Derek 2.0 · November 23, 2014

So how much is this all costing?

For Canada? I would estimate once you've removed sunk costs, based on our military action in Libya, several hundred million dollars in additional allocated funding......but of course that depends on the length and continued scope of the mission.