It is Immoral to not abort a Downs Syndrome Foetus?

[Hal 9000]

I agree. I believe there are two different issues here; One is the whole question of the legitimacy of abortions and the secondary one of the validity of the reasons for the abortion.

If you believe that life begins at birth, as I do, then the concept of an abortion can be looked at as an optional surgical procedure. I know and respect that others have different views.

If you accept that position then the next question is of what should be an acceptable reason for the abortion.

If you accept that it is the choice of the parents as to carry the child to term, as I do, then you have to leave the decision to the parents. Each set of parents will have their own boundaries and I am not one to judge their choices. As we know, abortions take place because of rape, incest, gender selection, physical deformity, financial impact etc. I believe that each individual has a view based on "what would I do".. Well, we are all different and would therefore act differently and have a different condition which would trigger supporting abortion (if any).

The trigger for that decision may be the knowledge that the child would have Downs Syndrome if allowed to term. I believe that the trigger is the purview of the parent(s).

In an abortion, the doctor cuts off the arms and legs of a baby, then crushes it's skull and pulls it out with forcepts. Full term babies are killed this way.

[Remiel]

For a woman carrying a fetus that has Down's syndrome it is not inherently immoral to choose to abort based on that consideration. But "consideration" here is the key word. To propose a rule, especially pretending it is a moral rule, such that "Down's syndrome fetuses must be aborted" is actually horrendously immoral. It is vicious.

[overthere]

The choice to abort or not abort the fetus is none of my business.

[scribblet]

In an abortion, the doctor cuts off the arms and legs of a baby, then crushes it's skull and pulls it out with forcepts. Full term babies are killed this way.

Really - in Canada you say... If you are referring to what they call partial birth abortion which in Canada it's called a Dilation and Extraction (D&X) (intact D&E and only done in very rare circumstances.

Have you heard of the Groningen Protococol - Euthanasia in severely ill newborns - well, there is talk about adding Downs Syndrome to this..

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp058026

[Boges]

It appears Dawkins has reverted to trolling inorder to keep attention on himself.

[Bob Macadoo]

It appears Dawkins has reverted to trolling inorder to keep attention on himself.

If the horse ain't dead keep floggin' it. A few have made careers of it in here.

[-1=e^ipi]

If you believe that life begins at birth, as I do

What a ridiculous proposition. There is no point where 'life begins'.

[Guest]

It doesn't begin at 40, I know that much.

[Bob Macadoo]

It doesn't begin at 40, I know that much.

What? Time to end this then at 39.

[Big Guy]

What a ridiculous proposition. There is no point where 'life begins'.

Is that "proposition" as by Bertrand Russell, as by logical positivists, as by Aristotle or as by Buxom Bunny Larue?

There is no point to "There is no point where life begins".

[-1=e^ipi]

Is that "proposition" as by Bertrand Russell, as by logical positivists, as by Aristotle or as by Buxom Bunny Larue?

There is no point to "There is no point where life begins".

I don't care who supports the idea. It is still ridiculous. Life isn't a binary, and trying to determine a point in time where 'life starts' doesn't make sense. Life is a gradual process.

Edited August 31, 2014 by -1=e^ipi

[cybercoma]

There is the question of the enormous cost to the state vs little likelihood of any kind of contribution from the downs syndrome children. It's not like the parents are going to be able to afford to look after these kids themselves.

Why not just execute everyone who has a negative cost-contribution ratio? Come on, man.

[scribblet]

Maybe Triage as in the Groningen Procedure.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp058026

Dilemmas regarding end-of-life decisions for newborns with a very poor quality of life and presumably unbearable suffering and no hope of improvement are shared by physicians throughout the world. In the Netherlands, obligatory reporting with the aid of a protocol and subsequent assessment of euthanasia in newborns help us to clarify the decision-making process. This approach suits our legal and social culture, but it is unclear to what extent it would be transferable to other countries

http://www.downsyndromeprenataltesting.com/gosnell-after-birth-abortion-and-down-syndrome/

A child born with Down syndrome was one of those killed by the Groningen Protocol ---- there are academics who have cited prenatal testing and selective abortion for Down syndrome to argue that not only are Gosnell’s actions not criminal, but morally justifiable.

[jacee]

There was a student with Down's Syndrome at my university.

They are not all severely challenged.

They are just easily identifiable genetically.

I think it's absolutely disgusting that doctors would get away with euthanizing someone just because they have Down's Syndrome.

Up until the 1970's, doctors routinely insisted that parents institutionalize babies born with any disorder. I saw many people in horribly abusive institutions who could have functioned in the community.

Babies with epilepsy were routinely institutionalized.

My neighbour has epilepsy, a good job and is a good mom.

People with cerebral palsy were institutionalized - easily identifiable because of movement problems.

I know a university professor with CP.

They should be euthanizing pedophiles and sociopaths ... but they are not as easily identifiable as people with Down's Syndrome.

Of course if they euthanized all the sociopaths ... the ranks of megacorp CEO's would be severely depleted!!!

Edited August 31, 2014 by jacee

[Big Guy]

I don't care who supports the idea. It is still ridiculous. Life isn't a binary, and trying to determine a point in time where 'life starts' doesn't make sense. Life is a gradual process.

Sorry, do not have the time or volition to get involved in a discussion of existentialism, navel gazing or the meaning of life. Am still busy counting the number of angels on the head of a pin.

[Argus]

Some facts about Down Syndrome to dispel some long lingering myths:

• Around 500 Down Syndrome babies are born in Canada annually
• Life expectancy has increased dramatically in recent years, with the average life expectancy approaching that of peers without Down syndrome
• Most people with Down syndrome have cognitive delays that are mild to moderate. Children fully participate in public and private educational programs. Educators and researchers are still discovering the full educational potential of people with Down syndrome
• They are active participants in the educational, vocational, social, and recreational activities of the community. They are integrated into the regular education system and take part in sports, camping, music, art programs and all the other activities of their communities.They are valued members of their families and their communities, contributing to society in a variety of ways
• They are included in regular academic classrooms in schools across the country. They are integrated into specific courses, while in other situations students are fully included in the regular classroom for all subjects. The current trend in education is for full inclusion in the social and educational life of the community. Increasingly, they graduate from high school with regular diplomas, participate in post-secondary academic and college experiences and, in some cases, receive college degrees.
• They are being employed by banks, corporations, nursing homes, hotels and restaurants. They work in the music and entertainment industry, in clerical positions, childcare, the sports field and in the computer industry to name a few.
• People with Down syndrome socialize and have meaningful friendships. Some choose to date, form ongoing relationships and marry
• Research is making great strides. Scientists now feel strongly that it will be possible to improve, correct or prevent many of the problems associated with Down syndrome in the future.

Nice list. You left off that the average downs person has the IQ of an 8 year old. Yes, some are less affected, but some are MORE affected, never getting past the mental age of four or five. Edited August 31, 2014 by Argus

[WestCoastRunner]

Nice list. You left off that the average downs person has the IQ of an 8 year old. Yes, some are less affected, but some are MORE affected, never getting past the mental age of four or five.

You shouldn't just rely on wiki for your facts. Broaden your horizons.

• In the last several years, the average IQ of a person with Down syndrome has increased. In people with Down syndrome, 39.4% are in the mild intellectual disability range of 50-70, and 1% in the borderline intellectual function range of 70-80 (average IQ in the general population is 70-130).
• Some research shows that people with Down syndrome who have certain heart defects or childhood leukemia are more likely than their typical counterparts to recover or recover quickly.
• It is rare for a person with Down syndrome to have a solid tumor cancer or cardiovascular disease, including heart attack and stroke.
• People with Down syndrome are no longer institutionalized, lifespan has more than doubled, and the mainstream population strongly believe in the human and civil rights for people with the condition. They also believe that people are all better off if they help people with Down syndrome.
• Medical communities (and Argus) have not caught up with society’s positive view about people with Down syndrome or the idea of "new" Down Syndrome.
• Recent surveys of parents, doctors, and medical students indicate that outdated and inaccurate information about Down syndrome is being provided to pregnant women who are prenatally diagnosed or at birth of their child.
• Despite 1980s legislation in the U.S. to the contrary, some doctors still believe lifesaving procedures should be denied a person with Down syndrome; in some countries individuals with Down syndrome are still institutionalized.
• There is a major lack of funding for research benefitting people with Down syndrome, even compared to other conditions and diseases.
• The funding for Down syndrome research at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) started a continual and precipitous decline in the year 2001 – as a result today Down syndrome is the least-funded major genetic condition in the U.S.;

[-1=e^ipi]

Am still busy counting the number of angels on the head of a pin.

I'll help you with that. There are zero angels.

Why not just execute everyone who has a negative cost-contribution ratio? Come on, man.

In that case, to be consistent, would it also make sense to abolish pets? If a person with down syndrome has a net cost to society, then why not a cat? So if it is immoral to not abort a down syndrome fetus, then is it also immoral to keep a household pet?

[Mighty AC]

I'm glad parents have the choice to proceed or terminate the pregnancy as they see fit.

[WestCoastRunner]

I'm glad parents have the choice to proceed or terminate the pregnancy as they see fit.

I absolutely agree.

[Hal 9000]

I'm glad parents have the choice to proceed or terminate the pregnancy as they see fit.

Parents don't, only women do!

[Mighty AC]

Parents don't, only women do!

Many will discuss it as couples but you're right women make the call. As it should be.

[Hal 9000]

Many will discuss it as couples but you're right women make the call. As it should be.

That's right, If man knocks up a woman, he has to be accountable. If a woman get's knocked up, no accountability required.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Hal 9000

[Mighty AC]

That's right, If man knocks up a woman, he has to be accountable. If a woman get's knocked up, no accountability required.

I don't follow your logic?

[-1=e^ipi]

That's right, If man knocks up a woman, he has to be accountable. If a woman get's knocked up, no accountability required.

Yes, gender 'equality' and feminism at its finest. Everyone is equal, some individuals are just more equal than others.