Ferguson unrest

On Guard for Thee · December 5, 2014

Maybe you should do some reading on the case. It's obvious you don't know basic facts of the procedings, and at worst you are arming yourself with nothing but nonsense from leftwing activist sites.

You are correct, this grand jury did have the full compliment allowed under law. I was thinking about the Brown case when I made the post, my mistake. I do though understand how the proceedings work and that is also why nearly half of the states don't use the GJ. Frought with too many errors which certainly seems obvious in the Eric Garner case.

Michael Hardner · December 5, 2014

It is astonishing.....only "blacks" are ever killed by the police in the U.S. /sarcasm

Of course it's not so, but the current outrage actually is instructive - not about the facts, but about perceptions. And perceptions appear to be a big problem in Canada and the US.

cybercoma · December 5, 2014

Does the coroner train chokeholds on a daily basis? Do you?

Because I do.

You mean the coroner who ruled that there was no damage to Garner's throat?

You must be training at a McDojo if you're completely unaware that a chokehold can be used to squeeze the arteries in someone's neck to render them unconscious and doesn't have to damage the throat. You also must be training with people who aren't fighting back because you can get someone in a chokehold and struggle with them to get it sunk in. Even then they'll have a few seconds to tap. Your so-called expertise is hilarious here.

Edited December 5, 2014 by cybercoma

cybercoma · December 5, 2014

It's also worth noting that the liberals pushing this racist cops nonsense across the US are deluded.

Worth mentioning if you can't be bothered to understand the difference between racism and bigotry.

cybercoma · December 5, 2014

Of course it's not so, but the current outrage actually is instructive - not about the facts, but about perceptions. And perceptions appear to be a big problem in Canada and the US.

Not about the facts, eh? Except for the fact that black people are 3 times as likely to be killed by cops and the less justifiable the shooting the more likely it is that it's a black person who is killed. Those are the facts and incredibly they're inaccurate. They come from the FBI and many jurisdictions don't even submit numbers for this data set. That means the number is likely much higher.

What you're calling perception is the facts and anyone who can't see that there's a significant racial bias in the way people are policed in the United States is burying their head in the sand. The vast majority of those people denying that there is a problem are white middle class people who have the privilege of closing their eyes and making it go away. It's not their friends, families, and communities being killed at an alarming and disproportionate rate.

You want some qualitative evidence of the differences? Go search Twitter for #CrimingWhileWhite to read white people's experiences with the police. There they are sharing their interactions that would have resulted in beatings and potentially death if they were black. Instead, their crimes are viewed and treated much differently.

Further still, do a discourse analysis on the media reports of when black men are killed by the police versus any white person. Hell, you don't even have to go that far. Just look at crime reporting. You'll see that white people are always talked about in a way that addresses their hopes and dreams. How they were good people turned bad. How their downfall is a tragedy. That's in stark contrast to the reports of black crime, which draws a narrative of "just another thug." Thugs. Dogwhistle politics and code for niggers. You go right ahead and substitute nigger in every time you see the word thug and you'll soon realize that society is no further along than it was in the days of Jim Crow laws and public lynching. Except today police are sanctioned by grand juries to do the lynching.

Black Dog · December 5, 2014

Another black man killed by white police officers. More demonstrations and criticism of police tactics. It is reported that this man died because of a "chokehold" applied on him by the police.

So if an unarmed black individual, 400 lbs, appears to be breaking the law and the police cannot shoot him, cannot taser him, cannot pepper spray him and he refuses to be arrested then what do the white police officers do?

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-York/staten-island-man-dies-puts-choke-hold-article-1.1871486

I dunno, plenty of cops seem capable of arresting uncooperative people without shooting them, tazing them, pepper spraying them or choking them to death. Then again, maybe they weren’t all afflicted with the Fear of a Giant Negro like so many in that profession.

This is old news. What is new is that the pig responsible won’t face any charges, despite the chokehold being an illegal move and despite the fact that Garner posed no danger to the police at the moment they decided to jump him. Also worth noting the pig in question had twice previously been sued for false arrest and violating police procedures showing once again that, like the guy in Cleveland who shot the 12 year old who quite his prior policing job because of his dismal performance, police incompetence, entitlement and general thuggishness isn’t a bug in the system, but a feature.

Black Dog · December 5, 2014

The reporting surrounding that incident was ridiculous, and so full of inaccuracies. The video does not support the notion that he was choked by the officers at all.

The video does and the medical examiner ruled that the cause of death was neck compression, the compression of Garner’s chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.

Your insistence that it was not a textbook chokehold doesn't change the fundamental fact that Garner died as a direct result of a cop jumping on his back and wrapping his arm around his throat.

If he can say "I can't breathe", then by definition he can.

Probably just couldn’t get “Please sir, I’m having some difficulty with my respiration on account of my asthma and your improperly applied chokehold, please refrain from continuing to apply pressure to my windpipe.” out before he died.

Besides that, if the officer who had his arm around Mr. Garner's neck actually was applying a choke, then Garner would have been unconscious (and fully compliant) within seconds.

So it was just a coincidence that he died after the cop choked him out. Ok bud.

I train these types of restraints every day -- if the choke is being applied tightly enough that the person being "choked" is even remotely concerned about their safety, they will already be sleeping inside of a second.

Probably depends on how hard and how well executed the move is. But then, I’m not a fake internet expert. Guess I’ll just rely on the word of, you know, the medical examiner. Of course, the fact that, as a NYPD cop, that pig shouldn't be choking anyone at all is lost on you.

It appears to be a choke hold only to people who have no idea what a choke hold is.It really is unfortunate that Garner was so unhealthy that he had a heart attack. It's a terrible thing for his family that he's dead. The police did not choke him though.

That he was choked is simply undeniable given the video evidence and the findings of the M.E. Your "no true chokehold" fallacy doesn't change that.

His health issues certainly contributed to his death. You know what else did (according to the medical examiner)? Getting choked out by some pig cop. That doesn't happen, good chance he’s still alive today. But say his health was so bad that, if he hadn't been choked and tackled by a bunch of pig cops, he would have had a heart attack and dropped dead. That’s probably preferable for his family than the knowledge that he was killed by the people who are supposed to protect civilians and that his homicide is now watchable on YouTube.

"Neck compressions".

Yeah: from being choked.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Black Dog

Shady · December 5, 2014

The evidence needs to reflect the truth to be useful.

You have it backwards. The evidence is used to obtain the truth. The truth doesn't come first, so it can't reflect it.

Shady · December 5, 2014

Regardless, in my opinion, this instance deserved an indictment, and a trial. However, I don't think the police officer in question would have been convicted.

Michael Hardner · December 5, 2014

Not about the facts, eh?

I'm not saying anything about whether the facts are correct or not.

Outrage is instructive about emotional landscape more than facts. And that is equally important.

cybercoma · December 5, 2014

I'm not saying anything about whether the facts are correct or not.

Outrage is instructive about emotional landscape more than facts. And that is equally important.

The response to the outrage is equally instructive.

Big Guy · December 5, 2014

What about the outrage to the response to the outrage?

sharkman · December 5, 2014

Worth mentioning if you can't be bothered to understand the difference between racism and bigotry.

Why don't you contact all of the media outlets in the US using the racism card and all of the protests going on right now, and update them with this chestnut.

Black Dog · December 5, 2014

Why don't you contact all of the media outlets in the US using the racism card and all of the protests going on right now, and update them with this chestnut.

What's the racism card?

IMO, people who deny that the U.S. is a deeply racist society are the intellectual equivalent of 9-11 truthers, anti-vaxxers and creationists.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Black Dog

GostHacked · December 5, 2014

I agree that Mr. Garner really didn't deserve to be killed as he unfortunately was. But it does put the police in a difficult position when somebody refuses arrest for breaking the law. It's not a debate. We can't chose not to comply. If I'm speeding and I see the police sirens, can I just keep driving? Can I wave and say leave me alone like Mr. Garner did? What would happen to me if I did so? I think we all know the answer.

IN the case of Mr Garner, what was the crime and who was the victim?

GostHacked · December 5, 2014

Friend of mine with a track that will sum up some of the concerns with 'Police'.

Black Dog · December 5, 2014

IN the case of Mr Garner, what was the crime and who was the victim?

Listen, he was selling untaxed cigarettes and you know how upset Shady gets when the government is deprived of revenue.

bush_cheney2004 · December 5, 2014

America needs kinder...gentler police officers and FBI...like this:

GostHacked · December 5, 2014

Listen, he was selling untaxed cigarettes and you know how upset Shady gets when the government is deprived of revenue.

Is anyone now understanding that the police are not here for your or my protection?

Big Guy · December 5, 2014

I have had nothing but positive experiences during my lengthy stay on this planet. Yes, law enforcement, just like all other careers, have weaker members who sometimes bring disfavor on the rest of the profession.

Personally, I have had assistance from law enforcement a few times in my life and found them to be professional and efficient especially under trying conditions. I have also witnessed many, many situations where members of the public bait, demean and assault police officers. I am surprised at the patience required when some people ("hey, I pay your salary you jerk") berate, spit at, ridicule and threaten officers and they still maintain their cool.

I do not envy them their jobs. I know how I would react under those circumstances and would quickly "render them peaceful" through whatever means necessary. That is why I never considered law enforcement as a career.

Black Dog · December 5, 2014

I have had nothing but positive experiences during my lengthy stay on this planet. Yes, law enforcement, just like all other careers, have weaker members who sometimes bring disfavor on the rest of the profession.

Ah yes, it's just a few bad apples. Why this particular tree keeps producing so many bad apples is never really questioned.

Personally, I have had assistance from law enforcement a few times in my life and found them to be professional and efficient especially under trying conditions. I have also witnessed many, many situations where members of the public bait, demean and assault police officers. I am surprised at the patience required when some people ("hey, I pay your salary you jerk") berate, spit at, ridicule and threaten officers and they still maintain their cool.

I've had mainly positive experiences with the cops, but i'd never think that my experiences are anything at all like a that of a young black male living up around Jane and Finch

Has it occured to you that other people might not have the same experiences as you?

Like, pretty much every time a story like Garner's comes out, people who will get greeted by cops with a smile and left off with a warning simply can't understand why the person encountering the cops doesn't just listen and obey, not really understanding that listening and obeying doesn't mean you won't catch a beatdown or a bullet.

I do not envy them their jobs. I know how I would react under those circumstances and would quickly "render them peaceful" through whatever means necessary. That is why I never considered law enforcement as a career.

Society at large thanks you for that decision. Sure seems like, for a lot of others, that's one of the chief attractions to the gig.

On Guard for Thee · December 5, 2014

You have it backwards. The evidence is used to obtain the truth. The truth doesn't come first, so it can't reflect it.

Not to overdo the semantics game, but I think you have it backwards. The truth does come first, it is what actually happens. The evidence is presented to hopefully reflect that correctly. And IMHO the grand jury system as it stands is not a good way of doing that.

Shady · December 5, 2014

IN the case of Mr Garner, what was the crime and who was the victim?

i think he was selling illegal cigarettes. The victims were the businesses that requested the police to remove him from infront of their stores.

Shady · December 5, 2014

Not to overdo the semantics game, but I think you have it backwards. The truth does come first, it is what actually happens. The evidence is presented to hopefully reflect that correctly. And IMHO the grand jury system as it stands is not a good way of doing that.

I partially agree. I think the grand jury is fine in most cases. In police cases though, there's a conflict of interest between the DA and the police force. So they need to come up with a remedy.