Ferguson unrest

[Argus]

That's not why he went back. He went back after Brown swore at him. Even if you buy that Wilson was aware of the robbery (despite initial statements from officials that he was not), the reason he went back was because Brown lipped him off.

That's not what Wilson said. He said as he drove away he looked back and noticed the cigars, and the color of his hat and shoes and recognized him from the broadcast, then called in for assistance. But regardless, my experience with cops is that if you flip them off they get in your face. It has nothing to do with race. Cops have a need to be obeyed. I've said this many times before here. It's part of the cop mentality. They tell you to do something you damn well do it or else they escalate up to whatever level they feel they need to.

Or you could look at it as a white cop getting cursed at by a black kid and wanting to flex his authority to show him who's boss.

It has nothing to do with race. Cops are taught to be in control of a situation and they all demand obedience from anyone of any colour. A cop tells you to get out of the road and you tell him to go to hell he's gonna stop and confront you every single time, regardless of what colour you are.

[Argus]

You cannot disconnect racism from personal interactions, can you? Nobody is talking about prejudice. We're talking about institutional and systemic racism. Is this really that hard to understand? If you don't know what it is, then look it up.

I understand institutional and systemic racism. What I don't understand is how you're trying to connect it to the confrontation between two individuals. Let's try this. If Brown had been a white guy, but had behaved in exactly the same fashion, what do you think the cop would have done differently?

[cybercoma]

I dont think things were left out. Quite the opposite.

In any case the prosecutors handling of this case was very strange according to every single legal analysis I have seen. Normally a prosecutor recommends charges to the panel, then he submits evidence to support those charges. In this case he just gave them a data dump and didnt recommend anything. This is pretty much unheard of... if the prosecutor didnt believe that charges were warranted then he should not have convened a grand jury in the first place... if he did he should have aggressively went after the charges he sought and presented only evidence to support them.

In generally if the prosecutor wants charges he gets them...

He comes across as a coward that wanted to let this cop off the hook without it having that appearance. Either that or he doesnt know what a grand jury is and how its supposed to work. He intentionally made an uncompelling case to the grand jury.

Not to mention the idiotic way he chose to announce the decision.

This whole thing was horribly mishandled. Local prosecutors are basically in a partnership with the police: They are on the same team. In cases like this one a special prosecutor should be appointed.

This does not mean I think that Wilson is guilty. Even if there HAD been a special prosecutor and an indictment I dont believe Wilson would have been convicted on any of the more serious counts. And we have no way of knowing if this was an unnecessary "stitch-up", or just a case of gross incompetence on the part of authorities.

This guy gets it.

[cybercoma]

I understand institutional and systemic racism. What I don't understand is how you're trying to connect it to the confrontation between two individuals. Let's try this. If Brown had been a white guy, but had behaved in exactly the same fashion, what do you think the cop would have done differently?

The confrontation wouldn't have happened. The cop probably wouldn't have even told them to get out of the road.

[Argus]

I dont think things were left out. Quite the opposite.

In any case the prosecutors handling of this case was very strange according to every single legal analysis I have seen. Normally a prosecutor recommends charges to the panel, then he submits evidence to support those charges.

You left out context. Prosecutors don't take every case to a grand jury. They take them to the grand jury when they believe someone committed a crime, believe they have enough evidence, and want an indictment. I think, absent the huge media fuss over this incident, the prosecutor would never have even taken it to a grand jury in the first place. I think he looked at the evidence, decided there was no way in hell to get a conviction, but then knew he had to do something because of the public pressure. So he convened a grand jury, gave them all the evidence available, and listed five possible charges. I don't think he ever expected to get an indictment.

Now, COULD he have gotten an indictment? Probably. As I understand it, the rules are such the prosecutor can be selective in what he submits, and in whose testimony he gives them. And there's no defense to explain or challenge any of the evidence or testimony. So prosecutors can almost always get an indictment if they want one. Of course, then it comes to a big jury trial where he'll get his ass kicked and be made to look like a fool as the defense council tears apart a lot of those witnesses, shows the other evidence he didn't show the grand jury, and has the officer testify. And the end result is a not guilty verdict and the riots take place further down the road.

[Argus]

The confrontation wouldn't have happened. The cop probably wouldn't have even told them to get out of the road.

Sorry, but I have been told to get out of the road by a cop, way back when. I also remember being yelled at by a cop when I tried to drive my bike onto the road well ahead of the daily guard march they were blocking the road for. Cops can be arrogant bastards regardless of your race.

Who walks down the middle of the road anyway? Anyone I know walks on the side of the road.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Argus

[Smallc]

The same can be said the other way. It only seems like it's not racism because people want to whitewash the whole thing. It's meaningless drivel.

No, it's not. Race does not factor into every situation. In this case, violence was the cause of the problem.

[bush_cheney2004]

Michael Brown's own actions led to his lawful death by law enforcement. Everything else is just noise.

[Big Guy]

The NY Times has placed the transcript of the evidence on the Internet. Anyone can now access it. I spent some time on this mountain of evidence. I did not spend those weeks listening intently as did the jurists. What little I have seen does not disagree with their decision.

What part of the evidence presented do posters feel is not accurate?

[Shady]

Even if you buy that Wilson was aware of the robbery (despite initial statements from officials that he was not),

You're completely wrong. He WAS aware of the robbery. It's in the grand jury evidence. Confirmed by Wilson's police communications. See, that's the problem with some of you. You keep repeating faslehoods from months ago, without realizing that they've been completely disproven. Start discussing FACTS, from the evidence provided to the grand jury. Not speculation and falsehoods from months ago, before the investigation. This is getting ridiculous.

[Shady]

The NY Times has placed the transcript of the evidence on the Internet. Anyone can now access it. I spent some time on this mountain of evidence. I did not spend those weeks listening intently as did the jurists. What little I have seen does not disagree with their decision.

What part of the evidence presented do posters feel is not accurate?

That's a great question. I'm not sure what evidence they're having trouble with. Perhaps they'll respond to you.

[Black Dog]

You're completely wrong. He WAS aware of the robbery. It's in the grand jury evidence. Confirmed by Wilson's police communications.

OK: show me exactly where (not in his testimony, I've read that).

[On Guard for Thee]

Shady you better go tell that to the Ferguson chief of police Jackson because he still states Wilson knew nothing of the robbery at the convenience store at the time he stopped Brown. Sorry to disillusion you.

[eyeball]

By burning down the homes and businesses in their own neighbourhoods!

No, I'd say peacefully marching on Washington would get better results.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, I'd say peacefully marching on Washington would get better results.

No...we all know that launching rockets and digging terror tunnels is best !

[Shady]

No...we all know that launching rockets and digging terror tunnels is best !

Zing!

[Shady]

Shady you better go tell that to the Ferguson chief of police Jackson because he still states Wilson knew nothing of the robbery at the convenience store at the time he stopped Brown. Sorry to disillusion you.

Perhaps you're unaware of the evidence in the grand jury as well as him. It's fact.

[Shady]

Wilson was aware that Brown was wanted for stealing cigars from a convenience store minutes earlier

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/bombshell-evidence-laid-death-michael-brown-article-1.2022689

This fact was also mentioned during the cable news casts shortly after the decision of the grand jury was released.

[Smallc]

OK: show me exactly where (not in his testimony, I've read that).

Now I have to ask you the same question you asked me - are you aware of the facts?

[On Guard for Thee]

Sure they got their stories together by grand jury time. Does that make it fact? Maybe if you're gullible enough, and it may be true. Either way it's not a huge pivot point.

[Boges]

Sure they got their stories together by grand jury time. Does that make it fact? Maybe if you're gullible enough, and it may be true. Either way it's not a huge pivot point.

We have the same problems in Canada, where police can get their stories straight before SIU investigates them.

The thin blue line is certainly a real thing.

[dre]

Cops do not take oaths to not shoot "black people", especially when assaulted. Same circumstances again ?....shoot 'em.

Why? Even though I tend to believe what the cop did in this case was probably "legal" theres no question that these kind of situations could be handled without anyone dying. The cop could have turned and ran when this guy charged... the perp had already been shot a few times and wasnt going to get far. And police could be trained much better in the use of non-lethal tactics and provided with more options.

[On Guard for Thee]

We have the same problems in Canada, where police can get their stories straight before SIU investigates them.

The thin blue line is certainly a real thing.

The Van PD will be working on their stories as we speak after shooting the guy who had a 2 by 4 a few days ago.

[On Guard for Thee]

Why? Even though I tend to believe what the cop did in this case was probably "legal" theres no question that these kind of situations could be handled without anyone dying. The cop could have turned and ran when this guy charged... the perp had already been shot a few times and wasnt going to get far. And police could be trained much better in the use of non-lethal tactics and provided with more options.

Apparently he didn't bother to have his tazer with him because it didn't fit comfortably on his belt. Of course as B_C points out they'd just as soon shoot 'em down there.

[Argus]

Why? Even though I tend to believe what the cop did in this case was probably "legal" theres no question that these kind of situations could be handled without anyone dying. The cop could have turned and ran when this guy charged... the perp had already been shot a few times and wasnt going to get far. And police could be trained much better in the use of non-lethal tactics and provided with more options.

When all is said and done we don't pay police to run away from violent people. We pay them to arrest violent people. There are limits to what non-lethal tactic you can use with a 300lb man when you're alone. Basically, you tell him to stop and get on the ground, and if he keeps coming at you, well....