Ferguson unrest

[sharkman]

Nah, this was too easy to be satisfying. Like beating a quadriplegic in a foot race, or a 4 year old in arm wrestling. But if I helped you glean the slightest understanding into how message boards function, I guess that's something.

Then this is only a silly game to amuse you after all. I don't bother with playing games on a discussion forum, so I'll tell you what. I'm putting you on ignore, and you can call it one of the pet characterizations you love so much. You know, the strawman, the deflection, the irrelevant anecdote or the dodge. Let's call this one the dodge, so you can keep the score straight.

[Black Dog]

Then this is only a silly game to amuse you after all. I don't bother with playing games on a discussion forum,

Or engage in discussions either.

so I'll tell you what. I'm putting you on ignore, and you can call it one of the pet characterizations you love so much. You know, the strawman, the deflection, the irrelevant anecdote or the dodge. Let's call this one the dodge, so you can keep the score straight.

Nah this is a new one: the coward's flounce.

[Shady]

I assumed that's what he meant, but that would be a really stupid thing to say, so I was hoping there was something else there.

Of course it's what I meant. There's zero evidence to suggest that racism is the cause of Brown or Garner's death. Zero.

[Black Dog]

Of course it's what I meant. There's zero evidence to suggest that racism is the cause of Brown or Garner's death. Zero.

No one made that claim, so you're pissing in the wind again.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Black Dog

[Shady]

No one made that claim, so you're pissing in the wind again.

I've found that several people have implied that.

[sharkman]

I've found that several people have implied that.

No kidding, it's funny the pretzels the left will twist themselves into. Did you happen to see Michelle Obama's new claim about her "racism" experience at Target which she's never talked about until now? When the event happened, she was on David Letterman, and told of the same event, but never made any racism claims then. All of a sudden today it's racism.

It's the same thing here. The left goes back and forth playing the racism card to their embarrassment.

[Black Dog]

I've found that several people have implied that.

That's because you don't understand systemic or institutional racism which, by definition, transcends individuals. A person can not have a racist bone in their body, or even be of a different race, and still perpetuate a racist system. For example, a black cop engaging in racial profiling through stop-and-frisk activities.

Basically, if you're talking about crime and law enforcement in the United States and you're not talking about race, you're not really talking about crime and law enforcement in the United States.

[Black Dog]

It's the same thing here. The left goes back and forth playing the racism card to their embarrassment.

Take it from this guy, our resident expert on embarrassing oneself.

[Bonam]

The left and right viewpoints regarding these issues are just too far apart now for any meaningful discussion.

To those on the left, most interactions in society are defined to a large extent by race, systemic racism is endemic to American (and even Canadian) society, living a normal life is a "white privilege" and an example of injustice. In this view, society has barely, if at all, moved forward from the eras of slavery (replaced with "wage slavery") and Jim Crow, and in fact today's racism is more insidious in the fact that it is veiled and many people deny that it even exists, and hence it must be fought against even harder.

To those on the right, society looks mostly post-racial, with some individuals here and there still holding racist viewpoints, best dealt with on a case by case basis when they commit racist acts. In fact, they observe that racism seems more prevalent among some "minority" groups who dislike whites. And they believe that the continued focus on race and victimhood by those on the left only perpetuates the remaining issues. In general, when judging an interaction, they believe that it is the individual circumstances of that interaction that should be looked at, rather than a racial narrative.

When someone on the left starts talking about "systemic racism" and "white privilege", those on the right pretty much ignore them and assume they are idiots. When someone on the right starts talking about a "post-racial" society or judging a situation based solely on what happened rather than the race of the people involved, or how programs like affirmative action are "institutionalized racism" those on the left pretty much ignore them and assume they are idiots.

As can be clearly seen in this thread which is nothing but a collection of thinly veiled insults for the last few dozen pages, you just can't have a productive discussion when the views are this far apart.

To discuss productively, you may have different opinions, but you can't be starting with totally different believed facts; you have to be grounded in the same reality. And that just isn't the case.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Bonam

[GostHacked]

Thanks Bonam. Some really good points there, and hopefully wont be lost in the next few pages.

[Argus]

No one made that claim, so you're pissing in the wind again.

Excuse me? No one made that claim? That is THE claim in these matters, that they were killed because they were Black by racist White cops who don't value Black lives.

[Michael Hardner]

As can be clearly seen in this thread which is nothing but a collection of thinly veiled insults for the last few dozen pages, you just can't have a productive discussion when the views are this far apart.

To discuss productively, you may have different opinions, but you can't be starting with totally different believed facts; you have to be grounded in the same reality. And that just isn't the case.

It's too bad. I enjoy being enlightened... I don't understand why others don't.

[Argus]

It's too bad. I enjoy being enlightened... I don't understand why others don't.

Maybe you just think you're enlightened.

[Michael Hardner]

Maybe you just think you're enlightened.

Well, if my mind is changed then aren't I enlightened by definition ? That's what I mean by enlightened: taught, informed, edified...

[Michael Hardner]

Well, if my mind is changed then aren't I enlightened by definition ? That's what I mean by enlightened: taught, informed, edified...

Did you really think I was boasting about how superior I am ? Sheesh...

[Black Dog]

Excuse me? No one made that claim? That is THE claim in these matters, that they were killed because they were Black by racist White cops who don't value Black lives.

Then a cite should be easy to come by.

[WestCoastRunner]

Maybe you just think you're enlightened.

I like this definition of enlightened:

"to remove the dimness or blindness (usually figurative) from one's eyes or heart"

So for someone to say they are enlightened, is to say they have been corrected, they have opened their mind, have accepted other explanations. (been humbled)

[cybercoma]

Excuse me? No one made that claim? That is THE claim in these matters, that they were killed because they were Black by racist White cops who don't value Black lives.

Except it has been posted many times that it's not about individuals being bigoted. It's about systemic and institutional racism. Feel free to educate yourself on those ideas before making wrong assumptions about people's positions.

[Black Dog]

Hey remember how when the grand jury decision came down, some people were talking about the unreliability of the witnesses who testified that Bown had his hands up when Wilson shot him?

Witness for Darren Wilson is a self-admitted racist with severe memory loss

This so-called witness, a middle-aged white woman, known only to us as "Witness #40," openly stated to FBI investigators a litany of bizarre and disturbing facts about herself, including that she regularly calls African Americans "niggers and apes," helped start a support group for Darren Wilson encouraging kids to make him Christmas cards, and that she only happened to be on Canfield Drive—which is not even in the town she lives in—the exact moment Darren Wilson killed Mike Brown, on a whim "to understand the black race better so I can stop calling Blacks niggers and start calling them people."

[Smallc]

Hey remember how when the grand jury decision came down, some people were talking about the unreliability of the witnesses who testified that Bown had his hands up when Wilson shot him?

Witness for Darren Wilson is a self-admitted racist with severe memory loss

Witnesses are always unreliable. The decision should be based on the best evidence available, and in this case, it seems it was.

[Smallc]

Except it has been posted many times that it's not about individuals being bigoted. It's about systemic and institutional racism. Feel free to educate yourself on those ideas before making wrong assumptions about people's positions.

That requires a belief system that someone like myself or Argus isn't going to buy into. It's a theory of social organization, and it isn't necessarily a correct one.

[GostHacked]

That requires a belief system that someone like myself or Argus isn't going to buy into. It's a theory of social organization, and it isn't necessarily a correct one.

It is not correct, but it does exist.

[Smallc]

It is not correct, but it does exist.

Perhaps

[Black Dog]

That requires a belief system that someone like myself or Argus isn't going to buy into. It's a theory of social organization, and it isn't necessarily a correct one.

So your theory is that racism is a strictly individual thing and that there's no persistent aspects within the system itself?

[Smallc]

So your theory is that racism is a strictly individual thing and that there's no persistent aspects within the system itself?

If there are persistent aspects, they are very few. Racism exists on an individual level, but in a very limited capacity in most of the western world.