Our Suffering Military

[Big Guy]

The current Harper government has been under fire for not adequately supporting our soldiers and spending too much on military photo ops. There was a recent report on the mental state of Canadian soldiers. The surprising result was that 1 in 6 soldiers report symptoms of mental disorders or alcohol abuse;

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/1-in-6-soldiers-report-symptoms-of-mental-disorders-or-alcohol-abuse-statscan-1.1954573

These figures are way out of proportion for the Canadian population.

I understand that soldiering is a stressful occupation but those figures are concerning.

Will pouring more money into the system satisfy these challenges?

Did 16% of Canadians coming home after WWII suffer the same?

Is this an example of some trying to scam the system to get more money from the government?

Did some of these soldiers bring these problems with them when they enlisted?

I hope there is some resolution to the questions that these numbers pose. Do we have to change the screening techniques for our recruits?

[Derek 2.0]

Did 16% of Canadians coming home after WWII suffer the same?

I doubt you could find sound evidence about members returning home from the World Wars and Korea to compare…First, said data would not have been readably available…….I would suggest our collective understanding of mental health wasn’t as advanced, coupled with the social stigma of divulging such information……

Unlike then, we have better techniques to diagnose and treat such conditions today, in addition to a now required practice of affording our personal time to “decompress” in a benign, yet clinical environment, before returning home. As such, I would suggest that instances then and now are probably similar, but we are better prepared today to carry out treatment of those in need………

The only detraction between the two periods, in my view, would be the erosion of the Royal Canadian Legion……..It’s past services provided tremendous help and acted as a support network for vets to share their experiences (and troubles) with likeminded people in a private environment.

[-1=e^ipi]

The government doesn't adequately deal with mental health issues properly in general, not just with respect to military issues.

But blindly throwing money at the problem isn't really a good approach.

To be honest, I think this is one case where awareness campaigns could go a long way.

[eyeball]

I think in a volunteer army that soldiers have to take some responsibility for the effects of their occupation.

As for volunteering to participate in the West's imperialism, I'm afraid I just don't have a whole lot of sympathy.

[bush_cheney2004]

As for volunteering to participate in the West's imperialism, I'm afraid I just don't have a whole lot of sympathy.

I think "we" already do that, regardless of military service. They are called First Nations for a reason.

[eyeball]

Blood Heidi Rubio school Bacary bought chichi Federighi so hypnotic d configured Hulu foggy.

FIFY....again.

[Keepitsimple]

The current Harper government has been under fire for not adequately supporting our soldiers and spending too much on military photo ops. There was a recent report on the mental state of Canadian soldiers. The surprising result was that 1 in 6 soldiers report symptoms of mental disorders or alcohol abuse;

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/1-in-6-soldiers-report-symptoms-of-mental-disorders-or-alcohol-abuse-statscan-1.1954573

These figures are way out of proportion for the Canadian population.

I understand that soldiering is a stressful occupation but those figures are concerning.

Will pouring more money into the system satisfy these challenges?

Did 16% of Canadians coming home after WWII suffer the same?

Is this an example of some trying to scam the system to get more money from the government?

Did some of these soldiers bring these problems with them when they enlisted?

I hope there is some resolution to the questions that these numbers pose. Do we have to change the screening techniques for our recruits?

Not to downplay how serious each of these incidents are - they should really be compared to police, firefighters etc - to at least have some relevance. Here's a recent article that puts a bit more perspective on things. No doubt the opposition will cast the government as cruel and uncaring. In fact, I think it's irrespensible for the article to compare the PTSD rate to the general public without providing a proper context - which seems to be readily available.

A 2012 study by psychiatric researchers in Brazil estimated that, worldwide, 10 per cent of emergency responders suffer from PTSD.

That number was comparable to the rate among United States military personnel who had served in Iraq.

It was much higher than rates among the general population of the countries that were studied – those rates varied between one per cent and 3.5 per cent.

In Canada, there is a growing movement to try to treat PTSD in emergency responders. British Columbia and Alberta have recently changed worker compensation laws to make PTSD a presumptive condition.

That means emergency responders suffering from the disorder will be presumed to have it as a direct result of their jobs, making it easier to qualify for compensation and treatment.

Link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/police-fire-ambulance-personnel-face-high-ptsd-rates-1.2719704

Edited August 11, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[Derek 2.0]

Not to downplay how serious each of these incidents are - they should really be compared to police, firefighters etc - to at least have some relevance. Here's a recent article that puts a bit more perspective on things. No doubt the opposition will cast the government as cruel and uncaring.

Link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/police-fire-ambulance-personnel-face-high-ptsd-rates-1.2719704

An interesting point, there’s no doubt that those in the Police/Fire/Ambulance/ER services see both egregious and heinous things on a daily basis, more so then most would ever see once in a lifetime.

As I spoke to in a previous thread, support mechanisms should be in place, but I also feel increased pre-employment mental health screening would go far in addressing a great many cases.

[dre]

Just use them for what our military should be used for. DEFENSE... Instead of dumping them into a "world policing" social experiment.

[Wilber]

After the world wars, vets got a very different reception. Almost everyone had relatives and good friends in the military

Now those people are in a small minority and vets are just as likely to get responses such as those from eyeball and dre for their efforts on this country's behalf.

Still PTSD was probably a bigger issue than we realize, it was just called things like shell shock and lack of moral fiber. My father grew up with Jack Charles who was one of Canada's leading fighter aces in WW2. They used to get together occasionally when both were based in England. After the war, Jack was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and he suffered from mental illness for the rest of his life. Today we would probably call it PTSD.

[Derek 2.0]

Still PTSD was probably a bigger issue than we realize, it was just called things like shell shock and lack of moral fiber. My father grew up with Jack Charles who was one of Canada's leading fighter aces in WW2. They used to get together occasionally when both were based in England. After the war, Jack was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and he suffered from mental illness for the rest of his life. Today we would probably call it PTSD.

Exactly......Now, we just have a better understanding of the various conditions, and more effective ways to treat it.

I still feel the degradation of the Legion and the reduction in use of the chaplaincy, both tools that paid a big part in many vets lives, could factor into this equation.

[Moonbox]

As for volunteering to participate in the West's imperialism, I'm afraid I just don't have a whole lot of sympathy.

I wish there was an emoticon that represented a REALLY emphasized " ". Are you reading from Lenin's manifesto?

As for your lack of sympathy and your generally lousy understanding of the world, most soldiers don't enlist to impose the "West's Imperialism". They do it for all sorts of different reasons, and I highly doubt that Joe Grunt comes home to tell Ma and Pa that he enlisted for the Glory of the Great Western Empire.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Moonbox

[Army Guy]

The current Harper government has been under fire for not adequately supporting our soldiers and spending too much on military photo ops. There was a recent report on the mental state of Canadian soldiers. The surprising result was that 1 in 6 soldiers report symptoms of mental disorders or alcohol abuse;

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/1-in-6-soldiers-report-symptoms-of-mental-disorders-or-alcohol-abuse-statscan-1.1954573

These figures are way out of proportion for the Canadian population.

I understand that soldiering is a stressful occupation but those figures are concerning.

Will pouring more money into the system satisfy these challenges?

Did 16% of Canadians coming home after WWII suffer the same?

Is this an example of some trying to scam the system to get more money from the government?

Did some of these soldiers bring these problems with them when they enlisted?

I hope there is some resolution to the questions that these numbers pose. Do we have to change the screening techniques for our recruits?

I would have to say the numbers are higher than 1 in 6, for lots of reasons, the main one is carear implications, i know the government and CDS have said there is no implications, but soldiers see what is happening to their comrads when they enter the mental health system. There is also the social stigma of being seen as weak, lets not forget most of these guys are type A personalities and are not keen on sharing their feelings with others and are more concerned with what their comrads will think.

Soldiers that have deployed are forced to fill out Mental health questionnaires 6 months before deploying untuil 6 months after coming home. Roughly a couple of hundard questions, all are compliled and looked at by mental health personal, problems are flaged and require another interview...at the end of each tour everyone is interviewed, asked about any issues....most soldiers will respond everything is good to go, that includes not answering the questionnaires out truthfully. I've seen it thousands of times where a soldier you know is struggling and should get help , does not, and those that know indiv do not say anything....

Why Soldiers do not turn in troubled members, For alot of these guys its all they have, you develope strong ties to comrads, the military way of life, the job over all, when was the last time you had a job where in the morning you could jump out of a plane, then drive and fire a 30 ton armour veh, blowing shit up......when they say there is no life like it they mean it....those that have made it a carear leaving is not an option...another is the Pay , lets face it finding a job that pays as well as a public service is hard, not many employers in the maritimes pay as well, in fact any where in the country, unless you count the oil fields....providing for their family is another factor, you don't want to mess with anyones ability to provide for family,After all one day it may be you....

Soldiering is stressfull , but lets be clear it is not the most dangerous job in the world there is plenty of more difficult jobs out there. thats not what makes it stressful. We know what we are signing up for, we know people die in our profession....what we are not prepared for is WAR it self....death and destruction ...i know we have all seen all the classic war movies....but being on the battle field and getting the experience from all your senses is very over whelming....seeing humans reduced to piles of meat is as distrubing as it gets....

that is why Policing , firefighters , EMS techs have issues with PTSD.

I have to go and i will try to answer some more of your questions later.

[Rue]

I believeDerek has summarized as good a response as you can get on this A Guy and I agree with your comments and Wilbur's. As for the individual who calls soldiers imperialists and they get what they deserve I for one would like to personally dump him in Afghanistan or Syria where he can help fight imperialism. To spew such elitist sheltered rich boy comments on this thread is par for the course. Only someone with a privileged sheltered life would say something that petulant.

I do think in the past we had similar levels of pain and they would go undetected. I do think like D said the Royal Canadian Legion played a powerful post war support network but I also think many soldiers came back and turned to the bottle and we just did not keep track of them and the pain they endured for the rest of their lives.

I am not sure how you screen out soldiers more prone to stress related illnesses. I doubt there are any accurate psychometric tests that can do that.

These kinds of mental illness happen to the most sane and normal of people. Expose any human body to stress repeatedly as some of you may be well aware it maladapts-for example the body produces high levels of cortisol/adrenalin which depletes the level of serotonin in the brain causing one kind of depression. That's just one example.

I am afraid the bottom line is war is conducted in hell and thus exposure to hell damns its soldiers in one sense. How to help them find faith after what they have done through is the question and as tragic as this story is we have to focus on now finding ways to acknowledge and bring out into the open the pain an suffering in a way that it can be treated.

Trite words I guess. I defer to A Guy and Derek's excellent comments.

[Big Guy]

Exactly......Now, we just have a better understanding of the various conditions, and more effective ways to treat it.

I still feel the degradation of the Legion and the reduction in use of the chaplaincy, both tools that paid a big part in many vets lives, could factor into this equation.

I am a member of the local Legion and the A.N.A.F. in Southern Ontario The Legion has been struggling for many years attempting to survive now being in direct competition with local halls and service clubs. Legion executives are not paid and all positions are volunteers. There is a limited number of volunteers to go around. Legions have to generate their own money. A large percentage of membership fees have to be sent to Ottawa to support command - which struggles to have any influence at all on the national level.

The A.N.A.F. is doing well - only because they began catering to the large off-shore contingent that comes in from Mexico and Jamaica.

There are so few veterans left that each Legion is struggling to survive. By having to cater to money producing events, the essence of the original mandate of the Legion is disappearing. Our small area had 6 reservists who went to and returned from Afghanistan and are members of this branch.

Our branch had a membership of about 700 when I first transferred my membership 14 years ago and now stands at less than 300. Almost all decline in numbers due to deaths.

While there is general respect for those who serve and served, there is little support for that fiasco in Afghanistan. I think those returning from that war zone have been disappointed by their reception at home.

[Derek 2.0]

I am a member of the local Legion and the A.N.A.F. in Southern Ontario The Legion has been struggling for many years attempting to survive now being in direct competition with local halls and service clubs. Legion executives are not paid and all positions are volunteers. There is a limited number of volunteers to go around. Legions have to generate their own money. A large percentage of membership fees have to be sent to Ottawa to support command - which struggles to have any influence at all on the national level.

I fully understand why the value of the Legion has degraded, and for the most part, it’s nobody’s fault really……Very simply, it was born out of the First World War, and further expanded after the Second World War to meet the needs of a large amount of Vets………Clearly today nature has been taking its toll on membership…….

Where I do find fault, is opening the doors to the public……….For obvious reasons, most Vets wouldn’t enjoy a public environment where people of similar sentiment as Eyeball or Dre are welcome….They are certainly entitled to their views, after all Freedom of speech/expression was what many fought for, but it certainly doesn’t foster a pleasant environment.

I would also add, volunteers such as yourself, are clearly needed and appreciated, but politicising the conflicts in which members have/had served in such environments is also off-putting and offensive to many Veterans…….In essence, when a goodly number of members supported the War in Afghanistan , your labeling it as a fiasco, can and does alienate Vets…….

.I would suggest, going forward, check your politics at the door if you want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

[Big Guy]

..

.I would suggest, going forward, check your politics at the door if you want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Part of the solution is to be honest. There are many members of the forces who also feel that our foray into Afghanistan was a mistake - as do many relatives of those killed there. I will not try to argue those views here again - but that is a fact.

The fact that some members of this board and many members of the Legion question some of the decisions of our politicians is also a fact. The Legion was and continues to be an environment where individuals can sit and argue any point of view that they have. Opinions are not expected to be left at the door but respect for the forces and those who serve is expected. That does not change when an expedition directed by our government goes so terribly wrong. Anyone has the right to express their views and be prepared to support them. Soldiers, reservists and vets come in all colors, sizes and views. While there is a homogeneity of attitude to service these are also intelligent people.

If we do not learn by our mistakes then we learn nothing.

[Derek 2.0]

Part of the solution is to be honest. There are many members of the forces who also feel that our foray into Afghanistan was a mistake - as do many relatives of those killed there. I will not try to argue those views here again - but that is a fact.

Do you think those that disagree with your sentiment, might feel alienated by your propagation of the “truth” as you see it?

If you’re incapable of seeing the division that people like you foster in an organization that should be apolitical, then the Legion will obviously continue to falter……..Bravo Zulu on your part of managing the decline of the Royal Canadian Legion.

[Big Guy]

The "truth" is what each person perceives to be the truth. I resent your assertion that open discussion somehow undermines the military or the Legion organization. The Legion organization is as political as any other. Command in Ottawa does try to represent the views of the majority. The troops may march in step to the same drummer but individual members do have their own political views - which may not necessarily be the same as those in Ottawa. In fact, if more vets had been consulted when Canada first decided to send troops into Afghanistan then the outcome may have been different.

Yes, there are many members, perhaps even the majority, who still feel that Afghanistan was worth the blood spilt and the treasure lost. They will argue that point in discussion as they rightly should. That is how we learn - we allow people to express their point of view, focus on what we agree to and try to resolve the issues of disagreement.

It is "people like me" who question decisions made by paper pushing politicians who refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of their decisions.

Perhaps they will take a little more time and consultation before sending our guys and gals into battle.

Perhaps not.

[Derek 2.0]

The "truth" is what each person perceives to be the truth. I resent your assertion that open discussion somehow undermines the military or the Legion organization. The Legion organization is as political as any other. Command in Ottawa does try to represent the views of the majority. The troops may march in step to the same drummer but individual members do have their own political views - which may not necessarily be the same as those in Ottawa. In fact, if more vets had been consulted when Canada first decided to send troops into Afghanistan then the outcome may have been different.

The point is clearly lost on you……there are a great many vehicles already available for Canadians to discuss politics and policy freely, but the intent of the Royal Canadian Legion was to never be another......You're are doing a great disservice to it's remaining members and should be ashamed.

[Big Guy]

The only thing we remove at the door is any head wear.

We appear to have an irresolvable difference of opinion so to belabor the point would be a waste of both our times. I assume that we both have access to the on-line version of the RCL leadership and membership manuals and do accordingly. I continue to enjoy commiserating over a "cold glass of milk" with other members, expressing my point of view on any and ALL aspects of our society, listening to theirs and being the better for the experience.

I have no shame in that experience, nor do I intend to change my approach.

Thank you for taking the time to express your opinion about this sensitive subject.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Big Guy

[Derek 2.0]

The only thing we remove at the door is any head wear.

We appear to have an irresolvable difference of opinion so to belabor the point would be a waste of both our times. I assume that we both have access to the on-line version of the RCL leadership and membership manuals and do accordingly. I continue to enjoy commiserating over a "cold glass of milk" with other members, expressing my point of view on any and ALL aspects of our society, listening to theirs and being the better for the experience.

I have no shame in that experience, nor do I intend to change my approach.

Thank you for taking the time to express your opinion about this sensitive subject.

That you feel there is nothing wrong with alienating a segment of the Legion membership with wedge politics is truly sad…….And the Legion will continue to wither….

[Army Guy]

The current Harper government has been under fire for not adequately supporting our soldiers and spending too much on military photo ops. There was a recent report on the mental state of Canadian soldiers. The surprising result was that 1 in 6 soldiers report symptoms of mental disorders or alcohol abuse;

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/1-in-6-soldiers-report-symptoms-of-mental-disorders-or-alcohol-abuse-statscan-1.1954573

These figures are way out of proportion for the Canadian population.

I understand that soldiering is a stressful occupation but those figures are concerning.

Will pouring more money into the system satisfy these challenges?

Did 16% of Canadians coming home after WWII suffer the same?

Is this an example of some trying to scam the system to get more money from the government?

Did some of these soldiers bring these problems with them when they enlisted?

I hope there is some resolution to the questions that these numbers pose. Do we have to change the screening techniques for our recruits?

I think that previous soldiers WWI,WWII , Korea had a different experience than those in Afghanistan,and i don't mean easier just different..... by that i mean the enemy was known,in most cases they wore a uniform and could be well indentified.... front lines were pretty much established, and once WWII got started and units got into combat..... replacements started to arrive, these replacements were from recruiting centers these guys had no ties with the unit , most of them were known as "new guys", as no one really spent the time to get to know them....as Cas were always high...while in Afghanistan replacements were from our home units, we knew all of them as we trained together....so when when we lost someone it hit home, as they were freinds and comrads....might not sound right but it does provide for a different experience....

I think more funding will make a difference, it would mean more trained professional to help with the back log of patients....right now some guys are waiting months to see these guys ...the biggest tool is group secisions, soldiers tell their problems and issues to each other and try to work out a solution. it works but it is nothing like a one on one.....

I think that WWII vets numbers are much larger, these guys suffered in silence as this is where that legacy of YOUR WEAK comes from if you stepped forwarded and said i have issues you where weak or trying to get out of combat....Many soldiers coped with constant combat by going AWOL just getting away for as long as they needed.....there is a line in the sand on how much WAR one can suffer every soldier has that line....In Afghanistan we did not have a place to go AWOL, we were stuck in AFGHANISTAN for your tour....

I'm not going to lie to you i have heard of some guys scaming the system, but i can tell you this .....those guys are easy to spot....and are normally outted by other soldiers....Most guys that ask for help are legit....

Recruiting process can screen out the worse cases....but recruit training is design to weed those guys out fairly early...but as i have said before the standards need to be tightened putting more stress on recruits to weed more of them out....that being said, nothing i have ever trained for prepared me for the true stress of combat, or the horror of combat....

One has to remember that we are condition from birth to be a normal western adult, what is right and wrong....through our military training they give you small snap shorts of what combat might be like, the noise the confusion, but it never prepares you for the real thing...it is hard to explain....In comabt a soldier needs to be exactly the oposite of what our nation conditioned him to be....combat requires a heartless killer, that can kill at will.....for a short period of time....one minute your in combat less than 24 hours your sitting home with your family having supper blurting out "pass the F***ing salad" the table gets real silent , you ask whats wrong.........going from constantly on an adriniline rush, with heighten sences ...to hugging your 5 year old son in the comfort of your own home....

....it does not work very well....on the way home at the end of your tour they make us stay some where to decompress, a governmental word for get shit faced beyond belief with your comrads, to laugh , cry, break shit, get into trouble out of Canadian public eyes ....to get your head together before seeing your family once again....good concept it works for alot of people but not all...

I just want to say drug and alcohol abuse is part of the PTSD problem....these addictions are what kills a soldiers carear...much easier to kick out a trouble maker than a sick soldier, but it all goes hand in hand....they turn to these drugs to escape real life, to sleep, to be normal once again...I've seen more comrads go down this road than were killed in Afghan...good men that self destructed....but it is all the same problem....PTSD is the common factor....

[Army Guy]

I think i have to agree with dereck on many pionts in regards to the Legion, it has always been part of Military ethos that a few topics were off limits in the Mess,and the legion was considered another mess of sorts..... politics, religion, and the Queen.... One of those reasons is everyone has a strong opinion on all of them, and discussion can get heated over a few milks....Not that this is bad but a soldier is taught to avoid them when ever possiable in these places....

Like the Messes within the military and the legion is suffering from a decline in people that go to them, the newer generations have found other avenues to be entertained...lets face it the legion has a older crowd, much like the messes within DND....i guess they go where the girls are....always have....

As for talking to Vets about politics and the value of their war is a touchy subject, one that would be tricky to approach....i know i would have a problem with someone telling me my conflict was a waste of time, effort, and funding.....because i have so much invested into it, my time , my sweat , blood and tears....not to mention lost comrads...no one wants to hear your comrads life was wasted....we have to hold on to that knowledge that it had to be worth something atleast i do...for me it was worth it....Now my wife will tell you something different....but i think she earned that right, for putting up with all my shit for 3 tours.....As a Canadian citizen i want to think that we made a difference in some lifes ....We as a nation had so much to give, did we get it right....maybe, maybe not....but atleast we tried....

[Big Guy]

Thank you for two candid, insightful and informative posts. I assume that some of the recollections were painful and I appreciate your candor. There are a few minor points on which I might disagree but I do not believe in parsing presentations - especially presentations that have been obviously so well thought out that deserve to be left in tact and appreciated as a whole.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond and I am better informed for your efforts.