Why Must the West Self-Immolate?

[jbg]

Every time we open the paper we see that the U.S. government is dedicated to the art of self-destruction for itself and the rest of the West. Canada and Australia are making some attempt to buck the tide. We'll have to see whether in 2015 the electorate supports the Canadian government's brave stand.

The West is not perfect. However, it has built an enviable First World. The West is characterized (with some exceptions) by relative good government, low levels of corruption, freedom of speech, religion and the press, free internal and international travel and overall decency. Now, we are faced with chaos; ISIS in Iraq, the Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan, tunnels in Gaza, the airliner shoot-down in Ukraine. This list goes on and the cause is Western indecision.

I can think of the following examples of the desire of some in the West to compromise or destroy this, with just one moment's thought, as I strolled away from Grand Central Terminal towards work:

• The U.S. is ceaselessly pressuring Israel to allow Hamas and other Arab powers to destroy it;
• The U.S. is allowing Iran to go nuclear;
• The U.S. and the State of New York (and G-d only knows what other states) are working to restrain fracking, the internal transportation of crude oil, and other burgeoning efforts to throw off the shackles of petroleum dependency to despots;
• The U.S. government is doing little or nothing to restrain the surge of child immigrants to this country, and little to enforce immigration laws; and
• We are using toothless "sanctions" against Russia, and not taking obvious actions that would actually make a difference.

Fortunately, Canada, for a rare instance, is standing firmer for Western interests than is Obama. Time will only tell if this continues beyond October 2015.

I will not be able to treat all of these subjects fully in this opening post, but all should be further developed in thread debate. They all have a common thread; we are a willing partner in allowing the barbarians to rule the roost.

Gaza Issue

Canada's NDP apparently is not willing enough to subjugate the West to Islamist tyranny. From what I read on Rabble even Mulcair and other NDP MP's aren't anti-Israel enough. See picture of demonstration at NDP MP Paul Dewar's office:



As an aside I wonder how pro-gay (Rabble's pet cause) Hamas actually is. I bet the average gay Canadian wouldn't want to find out. It's easy to criticize Western actions from afar. Doesn't mean they'd like the results.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Kerry is pushing Israel to surrender to Hamas grant Hamas a unilateral cease fire. Apparently Kerry and Obama are oblivious to the reality that Hamas will inevitably use such a cease-fire to load up for another round of deadly attacks. They have used the time since the last serious fighting, to create a nightmarish nest of tunnels to facilitate the ability of terrorist to slip into Israel to kidnap and kill. Just this morning a suicide bomber emerged from a tunnel and killed several people.

The West gains nothing from pushing Israel, the sole reliable Western outpost in that part of the world between the Atlantic and India, over the cliff.

Iran's Nuclear Ambitions

While off the headlines, the negotiations had a self-imposed "deadline" of July 20. The deadline was "extended" when the negotiations have been fruitless. Indeed, even if the West had a true champion at the table, Iran is not going to voluntarily give up becoming a nuclear power.

The West has no reason to give up the keys on this matter. Iran, a major oil producer, has no obvious need for a nuclear industry. Their government has not shown itself to be particularly rational or trustworthy. The West would be hostage to the religious fantasies of some council if it were to become a nuclear power.

Lack of Effective Actions Against Russia

Russia has been "stirring the pot" in the Ukraine since days after the end of the Winter Olympics. In late February and early March it gobbled up the Crimea region. It then immediately began arming and encouraging "rebels" in the eastern part of Ukraine. Its complicity in the tragic shooting down of the Malaysian plane seems obvious.

Russia's activities in this regard undermine the liberal Western order of relatively free travel and trade. At a bare minimum the "accident" will make travelers worldwide think twice about undertaking almost any air travel. At worst it could cripple much civilian travel and trade. The West has built an order, starting with Pax Brittanica and continuing into Pax Americana of relative freedom of the air and seas. This is now grievously undermined.

Energy Independence Efforts Are Being Thwarted

The U.S.'s stalling on the Keystone Pipeline is of obvious and significant interest to Canada. The U.S. and Canada, while separate countries, are allies and essentially unbreakable allies.

The interests of both our countries are well-served if we collectively become significant net exporters of petroleum products. The financial enhancements are obvious. From a foreign policy point of view there is little or no interest in the West having to tailor its foreign policies to the threat of medieval tyrannies in the Middle East, dictatorships in places like Venezuela, and/or corrupt, ill-governed countries such as Nigeria or Indonesia to bring the West to its knees. This threat does not even have to be intentional. In Nigeria, rebels cut pipelines all the time. In virtually all of the countries and regions I have mentioned the politicized and inefficient "nationalized" oil companies have allowed their facilities and production to degrade.

Caving in to boutique "environmental" activists (really NIMBYs or " not in my backyard) throttles a burgeoning and thriving industry based upon fracking and crude production from Canada and adjoining parts of the U.S. In today's local paper activists are trying to stop the transport of oil by train (link). This is self-destructive.

I don't think anyone believes that the continued mass shipment of oil from Asia, the Middle East or Africa is a good idea, either environmentally or from a foreign policy point of view.

Immigration Policy

Before the mid-1960's both the U.S. and Canada primarily admitted persons with marketable and needed skills. There was some element of bigotry in the selection of countries from which we permitted immigrants. The pendulum has swung too far. Now, both of our countries are admitting scores of people with low skills or no skills. In Europe we have already seen through the French "car-b-ques" and riots in Denmark and Great Britain the results of this policy.

The U.S. is, for whatever reason, doing nothing to turn back the tides of parentless children. These children do not speak English. They cannot just be "dumped" on some local school system without providing the resources to educate (and in fact raise) these children. Children do not raise themselves.

Someone is not thinking about these policies.

Edited August 1, 2014 by jbg

[-TSS-]

Each of the topics you raised is worth a separate thought but for me the issue of Ukraine-crisis and the sanctions on Russia remains the most important and interesting topic.

I would wholeheartedly support anti-Russian sanctions if I were convinced that it would either topple Putin or at least teach him a lesson of leaving his smaller neighbours alone, which in itself is an unbelievably naive hope.

However, what if Putin is toppled? Why do we seem to think that in that case some nice guy would come and take over? You dont get to power by being nice and least of all in Russia.

[jbg]

I omitted this by accident, but I think that the West should restart the placement of medium range missiles in Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary. This was stopped when Obama and then-Secretary of State Clinton decided to "hit the reset button" on Russian policy.

[eyeball]

What a bunch of crap.

[eyeball]

More to the point though, the west is full of crap.

[The_Squid]

Right wing crazy conspiracies... #blameObama

[Bonam]

Most of these trends can be attributed to simple stupidity, ignorance, and short-sightedness. No conspiracies required.

[jbg]

What a bunch of crap.

More to the point though, the west is full of crap.

Right wing crazy conspiracies... #blameObama

I thank you for your thoughtful and considered responses. If you are so enamored of non-Western systems, why not try living under one? I doubt any of you would enjoy it for long.

[dre]

The U.S. is ceaselessly pressuring Israel to allow Hamas and other Arab powers to destroy it;

Ridiculous and silly hyperbole.

The U.S. is allowing Iran to go nuclear;

What would you have them do? Theyve put pretty strong santions in place, but the reality is that intelligence sources in US, Israel, etc dont believe Iran has a weapons program, and they also believe Iran is a rational actor that wouldnt just up and start nuking its neighbors even if they had one.

The U.S. and the State of New York (and G-d only knows what other states) are working to restrain fracking, the internal transportation of crude oil, and other burgeoning efforts to throw off the shackles of petroleum dependency to despots;

The current government has dont more to achieve energy independance than any other government in recent history. Production is the highest that its been in 24 years, and the last few years have seen domestic production increase at a faster rate than any other period since 1940.

This is just partisan bunk.

The U.S. government is doing little or nothing to restrain the surge of child immigrants to this country, and little to enforce immigration laws

The business community wants cheap labor, and you have let them get a stranglehold on your government. Talk to the chamber of commerce and various rancher associations.

We are using toothless "sanctions" against Russia, and not taking obvious actions that would actually make a difference.

Thats because pretty much nothing weve done would make a difference.

Look... you can disagree with these policies, thats fine. But the chicken little - sky is falling - self immolation crap is really just silly.

[The_Squid]

I thank you for your thoughtful and considered responses. If you are so enamored of non-Western systems, why not try living under one? I doubt any of you would enjoy it for long.

How am I enamored by these systems? Why would I live anywhere else?

This is more crazy talk.

[BubberMiley]

In a world where people who object to children being killed in their sleep must love Hamas, it makes sense that if a person recognizes the batsh*t craziness of a conspiracy theory that Obama is to blame for everything bad, that person must love the "non-West".

[August1991]

What a bunch of crap.

It's not crap but it is exagerrated.

[August1991]

Now, we are faced with chaos; ISIS in Iraq, the Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan, tunnels in Gaza, the airliner shoot-down in Ukraine. This list goes on and the cause is Western indecision.

In 1861, the US faced a far graver threat than it does now.

In 1939, the world faced a far graver threat than it does now.

Before 1991, the western democracies faced a graver threat than they do now.

In 1929, governments faced a severe economic crisis and politicians/bureaucrats utterly bungled the response.

In 1919, governments attempted to create a sustainable peaceful environment - and utterly failed.

---------

jbg, the threats/problems you note are minor compared to what people in the past had to face. To pick two examples: the Jewish community of Poland no longer exists; in the 1860s, the US could easily have split into two countries. To pick another more serious example: no one talks of famine anymore. We don't see photos of children with expanded bellies - photos that were common as recently as 40 years ago.

You list champagne problems, and our governments/politicians are dealing with them. I'm not saying that the world lacks problems.

It seems to me that as generals too often prepare to fight the past war, you too jbg are imagining problems of the past that no longer exist. Our current problems are different.

Edited August 1, 2014 by August1991

[-TSS-]

Your last point on immigration. It is always an interesting point. As The US and Canada are absolute magnet-countries where most of the people of the third world would like to enter it is easy to say that both countries have very rigorous immigration-systems in place. If they hadn't both would be inundated with poor illiterate third worlders in no time.

I'm sure that to an average Joe in the US or Canada the sight of many third worlders on their streets must make them feel that their border-control and immigration-system must be leaking like a sieve but after all even if 1% of the willing people were admitted even that number would show on the streets of either country because the overall number of people who wanted to move into North-America is so massive.

Most Europeans can just about forget about being allowed to move into either country if they are too old, don't have any special skills or don't have relatives already stationed over there.

[Argus]

Most Europeans can just about forget about being allowed to move into either country if they are too old, don't have any special skills or don't have relatives already stationed over there.

Which is ludicrous when you consider how many Europeans would love to move to Canada and the US, and how much better a fit most of them would make given their cultures, educations and skills.

[jbg]

Which is ludicrous when you consider how many Europeans would love to move to Canada and the US, and how much better a fit most of them would make given their cultures, educations and skills.

There's no "warm and fuzzy" feelings for the politicians to let people in who actually fit and could contribute.

[Moonlight Graham]

For the West, the recent foreign policy is really about picking your battles. Some things just aren't worth the blood and treasure. As for ISIS and the Taliban, going to war against terrorists actively planning on murdering us on our own soil (including embassies) is one thing, but going to war against all Muslim fundamentalists in the Middle-East is not good strategy.

As an aside I wonder how pro-gay (Rabble's pet cause) Hamas actually is. I bet the average gay Canadian wouldn't want to find out. It's easy to criticize Western actions from afar. Doesn't mean they'd like the results.

Hamas being anti-gay doesn't mean Canadians should be automatically compelled to support Israel lighting up half of Gaza and blowing up kids and UN "safe-zone" schools.

The West gains nothing from pushing Israel, the sole reliable Western outpost in that part of the world between the Atlantic and India, over the cliff.

In 2014, 6 Israelis have died from Hamas rocket and mortar attacks (possibly the most pathetically inept munitions on the face of the earth). Since 2001, 27 Israeli civilians have died from rocket/mortar attacks. I don't think Israel is under existential threat from these rockets, to say the least. To compare, 303 Israelis died in car accidents in 2013. Time to carpet-bomb car lots I suppose. Israel has a right to defend itself, but there needs to be sensible proportionality and some kind of concern for civilians and children by Israel.

I'll say again: In 2014, 6 Israelis have died from Hamas rocket and mortar attacks. Compare that to 1400+ Gazan casualties by Israel in the last couple of weeks. Women, children, grandparents, families being blown to bits. Seriously?

Iran's Nuclear Ambitions

While off the headlines, the negotiations had a self-imposed "deadline" of July 20. The deadline was "extended" when the negotiations have been fruitless. Indeed, even if the West had a true champion at the table, Iran is not going to voluntarily give up becoming a nuclear power.

The West has no reason to give up the keys on this matter. Iran, a major oil producer, has no obvious need for a nuclear industry. Their government has not shown itself to be particularly rational or trustworthy.

Iran might feel the need for nuclear arms because its mortal enemy, Israel, is estimated at having the 3rd largest stockpile of nukes in the world, behind the US and Russia. Iran also figures that the US has been invading, drone-striking, or rebel-funding seemingly every freaking Muslim state in the region and could use a nuclear deterrent. Seems pretty rational to me.

The West would be hostage to the religious fantasies of some council if it [iran] were to become a nuclear power.

You mean like Israel.

Lack of Effective Actions Against Russia

Well I agree that the US and NATO have been a bit too soft on ol' Putin. But then again, they also don't want to start a war with a nuclear-armed state with a leader who has a macho ego-complex.

BTW, the problem with Israel-Palestine is that the people on either side who want peace and are dedicated to lawful, peaceful resolution in good faith are completely drowned out by those, frankly like yourself, who want to continue with the violence. Tell me: How is an Israeli who supports this current military action any different from a supporter of Hamas' stupid actions?

Edited August 2, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[BubberMiley]

Tell me: How is an Israeli who supports this current military action any different from a supporter of Hamas' stupid actions?

Oooh.. tough question. Those never get answered.

[GostHacked]

Most of these trends can be attributed to simple stupidity, ignorance, and short-sightedness. No conspiracies required.

Throw in deliberate malfeasance as well.

[Shady]

This picture should be captioned. "Useful Idiots of the West".

[jbg]

For the West, the recent foreign policy is really about picking your battles. Some things just aren't worth the blood and treasure. As for ISIS and the Taliban, going to war against terrorists actively planning on murdering us on our own soil (including embassies) is one thing, but going to war against all Muslim fundamentalists in the Middle-East is not good strategy.

With regard to ISIS and the Taliban do you see any policy other than surrender? This is further evidence of disarray?

Hamas being anti-gay doesn't mean Canadians should be automatically compelled to support Israel lighting up half of Gaza and blowing up kids and UN "safe-zone" schools.

I threw that in to show that Hamas' agenda is not the same as the Left's. The Left supports them only since it would harm the West.

In 2014, 6 Israelis have died from Hamas rocket and mortar attacks (possibly the most pathetically inept munitions on the face of the earth). Since 2001, 27 Israeli civilians have died from rocket/mortar attacks. I don't think Israel is under existential threat from these rockets, to say the least. To compare, 303 Israelis died in car accidents in 2013. Time to carpet-bomb car lots I suppose. Israel has a right to defend itself, but there needs to be sensible proportionality and some kind of concern for civilians and children by Israel.

I'll say again: In 2014, 6 Israelis have died from Hamas rocket and mortar attacks. Compare that to 1400+ Gazan casualties by Israel in the last couple of weeks. Women, children, grandparents, families being blown to bits. Seriously?

Why should Israelis have to function with the threat that these rockets could hit their target? Why should any advanced society have to operate that way?

Iran might feel the need for nuclear arms because its mortal enemy, Israel, is estimated at having the 3rd largest stockpile of nukes in the world, behind the US and Russia. Iran also figures that the US has been invading, drone-striking, or rebel-funding seemingly every freaking Muslim state in the region and could use a nuclear deterrent. Seems pretty rational to me.

You mean like Israel.

I don't have the same faith in the rationality of mullahs that you do. And the equivalents in Israel, the Haredi, do not run the government.

Well I agree that the US and NATO have been a bit too soft on ol' Putin. But then again, they also don't want to start a war with a nuclear-armed state with a leader who has a macho ego-complex.

BTW, the problem with Israel-Palestine is that the people on either side who want peace and are dedicated to lawful, peaceful resolution in good faith are completely drowned out by those, frankly like yourself, who want to continue with the violence.

How about they're drowned out by the fact of the violence itself?

Tell me: How is an Israeli who supports this current military action any different from a supporter of Hamas' stupid actions?

Oooh.. tough question. Those never get answered.

Israel is an internationally recognized country. Hamas is a terrorist group. There is no equivalence.

In addition, Hamas exists basically to fight. Israel withdrew all its settlers fromt he Gaza in 2006 so the usual excuse, that laying down arms would encourage further settlmeent activity, does not apply. Their activity shows the Arabs' true colors.

Tell me, if Hamas ran the region would it be a center of learning or hi-tech?

Edited August 2, 2014 by jbg

[dre]

I threw that in to show that Hamas' agenda is not the same as the Left's. The Left supports them only since it would harm the West.

facepalm

[jbg]

facepalm

Explain.

[Rue]

Well JBG I agree with all of what you said except the pipeline issue. That I think has some very complex environmental issues and native land rights issues that have to be resolved.

I think in the last year or so Kerry and Obama's decision to support the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and Turkey and try turn Iran into their ally is a disaster.

Its not only alienated Israel, but Egypt,Saudi Arabia and the UAE all close allies of the US and perplexed at Obama's decision to throw himself full throttle behind the Muslim Brotherhood, so much so he had Kerry shoot off at the mouth supporting Hamas.

I make the firm argument that Kerry undid a ceasefire that would have worked that Egypt and the PA had agreed to with Israel and deliberately undermined it and sabotage it , I believe this will come out in the coming years and the full extent of Obama's alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood and turning on Egypt's new government as well as Israel will come out.

What Kerry has also done is make Abbas who I detest a lame duck. He has all but ignored him signalling that the power to deal with is Hamas not Abbas.

For Obama and Kerry to treat an illegal terrorist organization as a legitimate nation which they have done is inexcusable.

Obama has shown to the Arab world a massive weakness.

Yesterday he continued this disasterous foreign policy sounding weak and insecure as he told the word, "we tortured folks".

The last thing you do on this planet in this day and age with Putin, Hamas, and the lunatic fundamentalists and extremists is apologize.

What he did was say to Putin, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, look at me, I am a guilt ridden guy. Woe is me, Lament lament.

What the hell is wrong with this man.

Why not just put a target on his ass and say, kick me.

Yes the US in Iraq made mistakes. You don't wait until the middle of a test of your strength to control Hamas and Putinto say, ooh oooh oooh, sniff sniff sniff, I pulled someone's toe mails off folks.

What fantasy world does he live in?

The place to be frank and candid about foreign policy failures or express such opinions is not when you are in office but when you are retired in your memoirs and such comments will not endanger your own citizens or your image in the world.

He's a fool. He does not get and will never get that even when you may have done things that are wrong, there is a time and place for such comments.

Its the same as Kerry being such an idiot he couldn't talk to Netanyahu behind closed doors, he had to wait until Hamas observers were present with Abbas and state, you better unilaterally withdraw to 1967 borders now with no preconditions because they will cause another intifada. How irresponsible can a man be? He may as well have just said-phack Israel. Phack Israel and riot.

That did not just undermine Israel but Abbas as well. How was Abbas who barely has any power as it is, supposed to prevent an intifada when the US Secretary of State is making such comments in effect condoning such a thing?

But did Kerry learn from his mistake and his blowing up any peace deal between Israel and Palestine just at the most crucial junction in their negotiations where Israel called Abbas' bluff and said, ok you want me out-disarm the terrorists and put it in writing you recognize our right to exist, then we go.

Right when that was happening Kerry interrupted and blew up the discussions. Why?Simply because he is a bafoon. he does not understand how semites negotiate. He is so enamoured with his own ego he had to talk and focus attention back on himself.

He did the same thing with Hamas. I blame him personally for the latest failed truce.he and the UN demanded Israel call a truce and Netanyahu and Egypt both warned th UN and Kerry it would only empower Hamas. Within minutes of that truce, Hamas broke it laughing in Kerry's face.

Yes the US is in bad hands now with Obama and Kerry. I believe they will cause a Republican backlash in the next vote and the return to some pretty tough right wing guy. Right now people say Jeb Bush. My gut says someone else will emerge. The US is in a bad mood. Its fed up apologizing, saying sorry, watching their leader kiss the hand of the Saudi King and apologize.

A good strong US leader does not have to agree with Israel.Eisenhower certainly did not but when he demanded Israel pull back from the Suez War he stood by Israel and said, we will guarantee your right to exist and use the waters Egypt is blocking.

That's the kind of strong US presence we need.

One poster tried to raise the USS Liberty incident which is always a tactic in anti Israel posts. In that incident n 1967 LBJ claimed there was no US ships within 100 miles of the war zone. The IAF blew up of course a US spy ship. To this day anti Israelis try resurrect this incident of friendly fire as a conspiracy and proof the US is controlled by Israel. The very pilot who was ordered to sink the ship and over 10 investigations revealed it was an accident-Israel thought it was an Egyptian navy ship. Now the conspiracy says-no we had our flag out, they could see it. Right, just like Hamas wears Israeli uniforms, carries its soldiers in U NWRA and Red Crescent vehicles.

LBJ got it. He said, good friends don't trust one another. We got caught lying to Israel and spying on them ad did not tell them about our spy ship,they blew it up assuming it was Egyptian.

That was the lowest point in US relations and the alliance was so strong it soon got over that because the US ISrael alliance prevented the Soviets from three nuclear wars and control of world oil supplies. That delicate balance the US does between Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt an Israel kept the Soviets in check.

That balance has been ripped up by Obama and we have a huge vacuum. Hamas is running amuck and so is Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, Russia, precisely because Obama has no clue how to deal with any of it.

JBG Israel and the world is on its own until a new President comes in and stops apologizing for the US.

Israel needs a strong US not to agree with it all the time, but to say to Russia, and the world terrorists, don't tread on us, just like the USMC flag says.

just for the record, Bush-Chaney,JBG. Army Guy,Ghost, Argus warned of Obama foreign policy long before this current situation and I defended Obama so now I openly admit I was dead wrong on Obama foreign policy and Romney was dead on in what he warned.

In fact if one plays back the foreign policy debate between Romney and Obama everything Romney warned has happened.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Rue

[Rue]

Moonlight you ask how is someone who support the IDF in its current action any different than Hamas supporters. I will answer because what you are really saying is how is the IDF any different than Hamas:

1- the IDF represents a nation that supports a two state solution and peaceful coexistence with Palestinians, Hamas is dedicated to wiping out all of Israel and Jews world-wide;;

2-the IDF wears a uniform to make itself visible, it does not deliberately kill civilians and place them in harms way-in fact its soldiers die fighting Hamas precisely because Hamas wears civilian clothes, poses as children, women, disabled, the elderly and uses UNWRA buildings, schools, hospitals, mosques and homes as covers as part of deliberate fighting tactics while the IDF does not;

3-IDF soldiers die because they are now exposing themselves to death on the ground by refusing to ask for air cover and by hesitating instead of shooting when Hamas dressed as civilians approach them;

4-the IDF does not dig tunnels into Gaza where it then surprise attacks Hamas and shoots them in the back;

5-the IDF does not shoot its rockets and missiles from its citizens and homes;

6-the state of Israel who the IDF represents spends money on roads, hospitals, schools, for its citizens and doesn't re-route aid money to weapons;

7-the IDF has a penal military code that court martials its soldiers to assure uniformity in behaviour;

8-the IDF has an actual chain of command unlike Hamas and as per 7 and 8, when it fights its actions are controlled and accountable to a chain of command while Hamas has no central control-each cell has its own leader doing what ever they want when they want;

9-Hamas has openly stated time and time again, it is a legitimate exercise to kill its citizens-their deaths is a great thing, they go to heaven as martyrs and with their deaths is a public relations victory, their bodies can be used as propaganda tools to gain world sympathy-Israel and the IDF on the other hand try avoid Palestinian civilian deaths with preventative measures including telephone calls, leaflets, advanced notices on loudspeakers and knock on the roof exposoives-Israel builds its civilians air raid shelters and removes them from harms way;

10-Israel as we speak takes in Palestinian children into their hospitals-the Hamas leader sent his children and brother-in-law to Israel for treatment-Hamas on the other hand takes its hospitals and places weapons in them, their operations commands in them and uses them as cover.

Moonlight if you think the IDF and Hamas are on the same page in tactics, beliefs, moral codes, behaviour, religious beliefs, you are dead wrong.

Hamas is a religious organization, It does what it does under the belief that the Koran justifies its tactics and it must ride the world of Jews.

the vast majority of Israeli soldiers are not religious and have no opinion as to religion. Thy do not right for religion. They fight because their people are attacked. In fact the IDF has Muslim, Christian, Druze soldiers. In fact one of the first seriously wounded Colonels on the ground in the Gaza war was a Druze soldier.

This is a religious war for Hamas. Its an existential war for the IDF.

Hamas has declared it will not follow any laws whatsoever. The IDF is required to observe laws Hamas does not that endanger Israeli soldiers and expose them to death by Hamas.

Hamas has nothing but contempt for the West. They have contempt for your beliefs. They in fact have more respect for the IDF they kill than you.

Hamas is against everything you stand for MoonlightGraham. In their world you kill or you are killed and people who equate defending themselves are weak and to be killed.

When Obama apologizes they laugh. When you call the IDF terrorists they laugh. They know better. They know because you can't distinguish soldier from terrorist, they can manipulate you into thinking they are on an equal playing field with the West.

They are not. Hamas is not following a code of honour. They are not doing what they do to defend their people.

Hamas is about Hamas. It is about being self serving and using the death of its own people as well as Israel's to prop its purpose, its reason to exist.

The more of its own people it can kill, the more empowered it becomes as people like you focus on the people it kills and gets killed and ignores their decision to deliberately place their own people in harm's way.

See you can look back to WW2 and say, the Axis and Allies were on the same page, there's no difference. I with due respect disagree.

I do think there was a difference between the Axis and the Allies just as I believe there is a difference between Hamas and the IDF,Hamas as a supposed government and the Israeli government, the ideology of Hamas compared to the laws of Israel.

No Israel does not have a charter that says they will shoot every Muslim on the planet until the planet is ride of them like Hamas says about Jews. No that is not hyperbole, Its real. Its a real belief that this is a religious war and Hamas are the righteous cleaning the world of its Jews.

IDF soldiers do not think that way. I know many. I have scrubbed their toilets and peeled their potatoes. They do not walk in a room chanting religious chants, strutting with arrogance, wishing Muslims dead. They are in the armed forces as all citizens are. They have no choice. They are their to assure their fellow citizens do not die. Hamas could care less how many of its fellow citizens die. The more the better.

Do I think there are extremists in Israel, of course. One killed Rabin. There are some now who think Netanyahu has been too soft with Kerry.

What I do know is this, when an extremist Israeli kills an innocent Palestinian boy they are arrested and Netanyhu called that boys father and apologized. On the other hand when 3 Jewish children were killed, Abbas not only refused to call their parents, but ridiculed Israel saying they should expect more deaths. He didn't say he will arrest the people who caused the murders. He stated-well that's just too bad it could have been anyone.

Israel apologizes for extremist behaviour, the Palestinians hide behind it as an excuse for their failures.

I say it clear as can be. Palestinians have always had the choice of peace. They do not choose it. They cling to the belief they can take back all of Israel and Jordan and turn it into a Muslim caliphate.

Nothing's changed since 1948. Not a damn thing, only the names of the idiots controlling the Palestinians and the IDF, it does what it has to do. It will not sit on its ass watching its people attacked just as you would not expect your country to abandon you if it was under attack.