The_Squid Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) The Quran is the VERY word of Allah as opposed to the Bible which is a collection of tales with human authors. The Quran forbids altering its words in any way....being perfect from the beginning.Bull. Christians believe it's the word of God too. Nice try.It may forbid it, but most Muslims still ignore those passages, just like Christians. Edited September 7, 2016 by The_Squid Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Bull. Christians believe it's the word of God too. Nice try. No they don't. Each chapter has a human author. Matthew for example...not God. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 You can not ignore parts of either and be a Muslim or Christian...et al. That's not how it works. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 And some background: Muhammad couldn't read or write...Ancient Arabic or anything else. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Perhaps you can explain to us, DoP, why you choose a violent interpretation when non-violent interpretations are available to you? Do you want more war with the Middle East?Bingo. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Goddess Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 I don't want to speak for Dog, but maybe he is not "choosing" the violent interpretation. It is the violent interpretation that is causing so many problems. So yes, we "kafirs" are much more concerned about the violent interpretations than we are with the Non-violent interpretations. When we question a verse that says to "annihilate Kafirs" and are told by a Muslim that "kafirs" refers to farmers.......we're not idiots. We know that doesn't mean farmers. Quote "There are two different types of people in the world - those who want to know and those who want to believe." ~~ Friedrich Nietzsche ~~
Altai Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) What is the peaceful version of Sura 9 Verse 29? Can you link to one, please? I have explained that. You just dont want to understand. 9:29 is not an order to attack someones but its a limitation. If you accept it as an order given Muslims to attack non-believers, it will contradict all the other verses which prohibits to oppress others. But it also mean to put a limit in a fight, fight against them until they pay war reparations, because you may have to fight against them at any moment because of their agressive attitudes against you. Read the surah from beginning, its all about the aggressive attitudes against Muslims. Edited September 7, 2016 by Altai Quote "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
Altai Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 I don't want to speak for Dog, but maybe he is not "choosing" the violent interpretation. It is the violent interpretation that is causing so many problems. So yes, we "kafirs" are much more concerned about the violent interpretations than we are with the Non-violent interpretations. When we question a verse that says to "annihilate Kafirs" and are told by a Muslim that "kafirs" refers to farmers.......we're not idiots. We know that doesn't mean farmers. whuatttt ? LoooL. I really cant believe you got it in that way, so I said that word kafir actually implies "farmers" in the verse ? LoooL Quote "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
Goddess Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 The word kafir can also be used to describe "farmers" and you can translate the verses with this meaning. You did write this, did you not? Quote "There are two different types of people in the world - those who want to know and those who want to believe." ~~ Friedrich Nietzsche ~~
dialamah Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 You did write this, did you not? I think it was to demonstrate that context matters. Kaffir can also mean farmer but would not work in that context. Thats whst I got from that post, anyway. You might also note that, when presented with different information and researching it, Altai has st least twice accepted the correction. That indicates to me an open mind, something not often found on this forum. Makes her significantly more credible than those who keep insisting their interpretations are the only correct ones. Quote
Altai Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) You did write this, did you not? Yes and it was a response to another poster who was defending the translation of verses with different meanings of the words and I was triying to explain him that how would the verses be illogical if he uses the irrelevant meanings of the words. So you can use the "farmer" meaning of word "kafir" and what an absurd translation it would be. Got it ? Edited September 7, 2016 by Altai Quote "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
Goddess Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Got it ? I understand your interpretation, yes. So...the direction to "annihilate kafirs" means.....?? Quote "There are two different types of people in the world - those who want to know and those who want to believe." ~~ Friedrich Nietzsche ~~
Altai Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 I understand your interpretation, yes. So...the direction to "annihilate kafirs" means.....?? I dont understand ? Quote "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 I have explained that. You just dont want to understand. 9:29 is not an order to attack someones but its a limitation. If you accept it as an order given Muslims to attack non-believers, it will contradict all the other verses which prohibits to oppress others. But it also mean to put a limit in a fight, fight against them until they pay war reparations, because you may have to fight against them at any moment because of their agressive attitudes against you. Read the surah from beginning, its all about the aggressive attitudes against Muslims. Sura 9...The Repentance...is about how Muslims are to deal with the Unbeliever. Not something else. I'm still waiting for a peaceful version of the verse...or in this case the entire Sura since you presume I have not read it. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
BC_chick Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 You did write this, did you not? I think you're quoting her out of context. What she said earlier on the thread which started the whole discussion of farmer was: As I said in my pre post, the word kafir also means "who hides somethings". For example farmers are called with the same word because of they hide seeds in the soil. Does it make sense if you translate the word kafir as farmer in Quran verses ? Makes no sense. There is no such a thing that Muslims translate it in many different way, this is what you want to believe but its not in reality. So no, she didn't say the word (only) means farmer. She was saying that the word has different meanings and in different context it doesn't make sense. I could be wrong, but I think the point she's making is that the interpretation of the word as merely non-Muslim is not accurate. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 I don't want to speak for Dog, but maybe he is not "choosing" the violent interpretation. It is the violent interpretation that is causing so many problems. So yes, we "kafirs" are much more concerned about the violent interpretations than we are with the Non-violent interpretations. When we question a verse that says to "annihilate Kafirs" and are told by a Muslim that "kafirs" refers to farmers.......we're not idiots. We know that doesn't mean farmers. Indeed. I'm just going by what the Quran says...not choosing a 'violent version' of said Quran...there is only one. No King James Quran, etc. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Altai Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 I think you're quoting her out of context. What she said earlier on the thread which started the whole discussion of farmer was: So no, she didn't say the word (only) means farmer. She was saying that the word has different meanings and in different context it doesn't make sense. I could be wrong, but I think the point she's making is that the interpretation of the word as merely non-Muslim is not accurate. Yes, finally someones understand me. Its translated as "non-muslim" because of hiding the facts about Quran is done by non-Muslims. But this does not mean all the non-Muslims are kafir. Quote "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
eyeball Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Indeed. I'm just going by what the Quran says...not choosing a 'violent version' of said Quran...there is only one. No King James Quran, etc. So stop complaining about it and write one. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Altai Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Sura 9...The Repentance...is about how Muslims are to deal with the Unbeliever. Not something else. I'm still waiting for a peaceful version of the verse...or in this case the entire Sura since you presume I have not read it. Nope, you are trying your best to distort its meaning but you contradict with your own claims. first you need to decide that are we going to make someones Muslims by force ? or we are going to kill all the non-Muslims ? You cant claim both. If you claim both, then why the verse says fight them until they pay war compensation. Are we not going to murder them ? or are we not going to force them to be Muslims ? What the hell now are we going to force them to pay money ? Quote "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
dre Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 You mean like just leave them alone in their shitholes and they won't bother us? Like we did in Afghanistan? That's not at all an example of us leaving stuff alone. Its an example of the opposite. 911 was the result of a bunch bad policy decisions over decades. Its the result of military intervention into middle eastern affairs. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 Nope, you are trying your best to distort its meaning but you contradict with your own claims. first you need to decide that are we going to make someones Muslims by force ? or we are going to kill all the non-Muslims ? You cant claim both. If you claim both, then why the verse says fight them until they pay war compensation. Are we not going to murder them ? or are we not going to force them to be Muslims ? What the hell now are we going to force them to pay money ? You're free to deny Sura 9's existence. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 You're free to deny Sura 9's existence. You're free to pretend it matters. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 You're free to pretend it matters. So in your opinion, Sura 9 are not important words of Allah? Interesting concept...pick and choose which of God's commands to follow and STILL get into heaven. Neat trick... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dialamah Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 You're free to deny Sura 9's existence. Instead of deliberately misconstruing her statements, why not try answering her question .... If Allah ordered the execution of all non-Muslims, how could he also order the collection of penalty from them? Dead non-Muslims can't pay, after all. Surely with your claimed intimate knowledge and understanding of the Qu'ran and Islam, this will be an easy contradiction to 'splain away. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 7, 2016 Report Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) Allah didn't order the murder of all non-Muslims. Nowhere did I say he did. Infidels are to be fought until they feel themselves subdued and pay the Jizya. Like the Quran says in Sura 8: Say to those who have disbelieved [that] if they cease, what has previously occurred will be forgiven for them. But if they return [to hostility] - then the precedent of the former [rebellious] peoples has already taken place. And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do. https://quran.com/8:38 Edited September 7, 2016 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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