Black Dog Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 You misunderstood, media centers are the targets, the facilities not the people. Uh: who works in a media centre? Quote
cybercoma Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Israel has no obligation to let residents of a territory they are at war with enter Israel. Perhaps they should look to their fellow Muslim brothers in Egypt? I wonder why the Egyptians won't let them in either.Since Palestine is part of Israel and these are refugees we're talking about, they absolutely do. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) You misunderstood, media centers are the targets, the facilities not the people.So if I blow up your house with you inside, I can claim in court that your home and not you were the target? Edited July 31, 2014 by cybercoma Quote
Big Guy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 ... The answers to all these questions are objective facts. You might try answering them, thinking about those answers, and seeing if you can come up with any thoughts besides "everything is subjective". Thank you for your comments. Questions, like statements, can convey a sense of who the questioner thinks are the good guys and who are the bad guys and who they are rooting for. I get the numbers for my score from the average of the numbers given by a number of news outlets. You obviously think that Israel are the good guys. I also then assume that you feel that their lob sided superiority in kills is warranted and you would like to convince others of that feeling. Good for you, that is your right and it appears you are prepared to spend time on bulletin boards to satisfy that need. I do disagree that the answers to your questions are "objective facts". It is like asking some person if they have stopped beating their spouse. I still feel that any view as to causes and possible results of this conflict to be subjective. If it was not then there would not be so many opinions supporting both sides. Meanwhile, Israel just called up another 16,000 reservists for their forces. Life (and death) goes on. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
GostHacked Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 The Russians fomented rebellion in eastern Ukraine with intelligence agents, propaganda and fear-mondering tactics, paid ragged assed men to join the 'separatist' groups, led them, supplied them with weapons, and protected them against the democratic Ukrainian government. The US did NONE of that in Israel/Gaza. Clear now? Actually the US supplies a lot of arms and ammunition to Israel. Quote
GostHacked Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I was not aware that i was complaining, simply stating a fact that those type of facilities are military targets, and have been since the conception of war... Right, but if Hamas took out an Israeli power station, we'd never hear the end of it. Everyone is crying that Israel is some how playing dirty by knocking the power out....when it is part of the conflict a "legal target"....it was done to make the population suffer....in case you have forgotten it was the population that installed Hamas through elections.... Yeah through elections. Go figure. Why does Israel hate democracy? And you are not making Hamas suffer, you are only making the people suffer. And that is not going to make the Palestinians move away from Hamas, it will move them closer to it. Quote
GostHacked Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/gaza/10999571/Israel-Gaza-conflict-time-lapse-shows-air-strikes-destroying-entire-neighbourhood-in-an-hour.html Check the video. That's more than selected targeting, this is leveling entire neighborhoods. The before and after pictures are quite telling that Israel is taking this to the next level. I think this can be considered carpet bombing, when leveling entire blocks of buildings. You are looking at 30-40 buildings, many with 3+ storeys. Was Hamas operating out of every single building in the neighborhood? Is this really what is happening when we hear about the precision attacks on Hamas? Quote
Bonam Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Since Palestine is part of Israel and these are refugees we're talking about, they absolutely do. Gaza is not part of Israel. Quote
GostHacked Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Gaza is not part of Israel. They sure treat it like it's part of it. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Israel has to demilitarize Gaza, and I think the IDF has found a lot more stuff to deal with than anticipated, like a bad HGTV home renovation in Toronto. Terror tunnels, rocket launchers, weapons stores in mosques and UN buildings....who knows where Hamas is hiding their smuggled munitions. Leveling entire buildings makes sense from a military EOD perspective, because of booby traps and other inherent demil risks. Edited July 31, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Bonam Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 They sure treat it like it's part of it. No, they don't. How many Israelis live in Gaza? Quote
GostHacked Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 No, they don't. How many Israelis live in Gaza? That is not a requirement for occupation. Quote
Big Guy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 ... Clear now? It appears that your post is directed to me. I acknowledge that I have seen it. It would be impolite not to do so. I personally find you an irritant and your recent posts meant to irritate. Shooo. Go away. Buzz off. Go irritate somebody else. Sorry, I am not interested in engaging in any dialogue with you or your opinions. Until/if/when you change your approach I will be responding in this manner. Have a nice day. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Rue Posted July 31, 2014 Author Report Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Under international law it has always been clear a "blockade" is not considered an "occupation". The two are completely different legal distinctions. So the poster claiming a blockade of Gaza means its occupied is legally wrong and he should go find out the difference. One of the problems in this on-going debate is some of you do not understand international law and so its misapplication in this and other political conflicts. To start with Hamas does not follow international law. It never has and has made it clear it never will. International law and its conventions concerning acceptable conduct during war is predicated on two sovereign nations being in a declared state of war and both nations agreeing to follow the convention. In the case of Hamas it is an illegal terrorist organization, It chooses not to be bound by any international law. If it did its shooting missiles at civilians and its decision to engage in terrorism against civilians would be considered blatant war crimes. Since it claims to be terrorist, it escapes such designation. On the other hand the Hamas supporters on this forum feel they can use a double standard and hold Israel to war conventions that Hamas won't follow bu law does not work that way. International law does not say in its international context that a sovereign nation must obey the same laws terrorists won't. In fact international law requires reciprocity, the will of the feuding parties to conform to the same standards, not just one side. The anti Israelis conveniently ignore that and engage in this half assed non legal argument that is illogical that states, since Israel is democratic it should obey the laws Hamas does not. Using that reasoning, Israel should sit on its ass and die, since it will follow a law Hamas won't, giving Hamas the ability to kill them precisely because by violating those laws Hamas gains a tactical and very real advantage over Israel. No the law says you do not sit on your ass and let someone shoot you because to shoot back is illegal. What nonsense. Article 51 of the Un Charter allows a sovereign nation to defend itself . The pro Hamas supporters on this forum say Israel has no right to defend itself against Hamas since they believe Article51 only applies to another nation not a terrorist group. Bull crap. of course Israel has no right of self defence against terrorists. No its not compelled to die because some of you think it should. The criticism of Israel also engages in a convoluted distortion of the proportionality, i.e., the argument that Israel uses too much force against Hamas. Think of the absurdity of that, You have 3/4's of your citizens fleeing to bomb shelters and geniuses on this forum think that means when you shoot back, do so proportionately? What the hell does that mean? In Big Guy's world its easy. Oh so easy. You just add up the number of deaths on both sides like an xbox score and if the amounts are imbalanced, the one with the least amount of deaths is acting disproportionately and is more evil in terms of morality. In the real world of law, not Big Guys selective world of political bias, you don't have to actually kill someone as Big Guy's position necessarily suggests to be defined as having done something wrong and in need of defending yourself. No you don't have to die. First off if you do its kind of hard to defend yourself. Secondly to knowingly sit passively while someone goes to kill you is suicide. he fact you try kill someone but don't succeed does not suddenly make that attempt acceptable and not capable of being responded to. Israel has the right to defend its people because of its moral responsibility as a Jewish collective to protect its people from extinction. Article 51 allows self defence but since Hamas could care less about Article 51, Israel has to revert back to its basic moral existential imperative. No it can't sit and watch itself killed. No when terrorists attack it, when missiles come in, when Hamas vows to wipe it out, it has to defend. To do otherwise and let its people die would be immoral. So the question becomes only one-is the force Israel uses disproportionate to what Hamas is doing? That whole argument would not be a question if civilians were not dying. If Israel was only killing Hamas operatives and not civilians no one would question it firing back and killing the people shooting at it. Add the element of civilian deaths and then the equation is changed because now the focus goes to the civilians dying. The point though is legally, to define who is responsible for the deaths of those civilians we must ask, but for Hamas placing these people in harm's way would they be killed? Jacee came on this forum and said Hamas has made peace gestures and Israel hasn't. Read her absurd comment. What peace initiative has Hamas done? In fact it continues to deliberately place its civilians in harm's way. It deliberately places its rocket launchers next to or in the middle of its civilians. It stores its weapons and shoots its missiles from hospitals, schools, UNWRA buildings. How is it the pro Hamas posters on this forum not once have condemned Hamas. I did notice West Coast finally conceded a mutual failure on both sides. I say this. I can understand any of you criticizing Israel for killing innocent civilians. I understand. I get it. I loath it and I support Israel No I do not want Palestinians dying. Each death is a travesty. But I ask when you criticize Israel understand they do not act in a vacuum for no reason. They are firing back at a rocket trying to kill the person who shot it, and if that kills civilians its tragic but to remain silent would enable Hamas to think as long as it uses civilians as shields it won't be shot back at. Israel is forced to kill Palestinians because in the greater picture less will die if Hamas is taken out and the area demilitarized. The best thing that could happen to Palestinians in GAza would be to eradicate Hamas. The problem is Hamas won't let that happen. They will in a few weeks or days, stop again after running out of weapons and places to hide and the IDF zeroing in on them. When its civilian cover becomes too thin it will stop before its wiped out. It won't give a damn at the people it used as shields who died. It won't care with the carnage left behind because Iran and Oman and Turkey and extremists overseas using organized crime and charities will raise the money to rebuild, bring back in missiles, build new tunnels, and once again 5 years from now, we will be right back to this again. The only solution is a permanent demilitarization of Gaza and the West Bank. That can't happen until Palestinians say, no more. No more terrorism, No more. Stop. We can't wipe out Israel. Stop claiming we are dying and its necessary to die to liberate Israel. Enough. Palestinians are victims of Hamas as much as you think they are of Israel. I would also like Jacee to understand that as we banter on this forum Hamas is engaging in deliberate actions to kill more of its civilians and for her to claim it raised peace initiatives is absolutely false. It rejected a truce offered by Egypt, Israel and the PA. It wants the right to remain in a declared state of war to wipe out Israel but full access to the outside world so it can re-equip itself. That is a travesty. For Jacee to misrepresent that as a peace initiative is past absurd. Hamas' 10 year peace treaty is not binding. If she bothered to understand why Hamas reserves the right to walk away from that proposed 10 year treaty at a moment's notice, she would understand why. No Israel will not agree to stop so Hamas can re-arm and then resume the war. If Jacee wants to pretend Hamas is not interested in taking back Israel she can continue with her fantasy, Edited July 31, 2014 by Rue Quote
jbg Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Yeah through elections. Go figure. Why does Israel hate democracy? And you are not making Hamas suffer, you are only making the people suffer. And that is not going to make the Palestinians move away from Hamas, it will move them closer to it.One can make an interesting argument that if Hamas was elected, there is nothing wrong with the people who elected them having to suffer the baleful consequences. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/gaza/10999571/Israel-Gaza-conflict-time-lapse-shows-air-strikes-destroying-entire-neighbourhood-in-an-hour.html Check the video. That's more than selected targeting, this is leveling entire neighborhoods. The before and after pictures are quite telling that Israel is taking this to the next level. I think this can be considered carpet bombing, when leveling entire blocks of buildings. You are looking at 30-40 buildings, many with 3+ storeys. Was Hamas operating out of every single building in the neighborhood? Is this really what is happening when we hear about the precision attacks on Hamas? Israel has to demilitarize Gaza, and I think the IDF has found a lot more stuff to deal with than anticipated, like a bad HGTV home renovation in Toronto. Terror tunnels, rocket launchers, weapons stores in mosques and UN buildings....who knows where Hamas is hiding their smuggled munitions. Leveling entire buildings makes sense from a military EOD perspective, because of booby traps and other inherent demil risks.As I have said repeatedly, the method of deliberately conducting warfare from and among civilian populations will cause grievous injury to civilians. At the time of the September 11 attacks I felt that the Islamist (as opposed to Muslim) world was drawing punishment to innocent Muslims and in a catastrophic manner. Fortunately for them they had a relatively malleable adversary. Israel has no where to run. Israel cannot take a September 11-type attack. They will eventually be forced to disregard all international-image concerns. The results will potentially be beyond horrible. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Argus Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 <facepalm/> You do realize that any criticism of Hamas within the territory they control is liable to get you killed, right? They are not a bunch of freedom loving democrats. Torture is endemic without the Palestinian police system, and the courts, such as they are, and for those who actually get to see any of them, are completely controlled by Hamas. So do you really think there are what we would call journalists there? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Who the hell cares! Tallying war atrocities is for nincompoop chest thumpers. You mean like Big Guy? Edited July 31, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I keep a running score because that the only factual data of what is going on. If you don't like the score than I suggest keep your own score. Perhaps one innocent Palestinian civilian death is equal to two innocent Israeli civilian deaths. Or the reverse - perhaps two innocent Palestinian deaths is equal to one innocent Israeli civilian death. You make that comparison based on your opinion. I still equate that every innocent non-combatant life to be equal - and precious. Right at this time, the score is Israel - 1,500 and Hamas - 55. The police kill more criminals than the criminals do police. Therefore, by this logic, the police are being horribly unfair and should allow the criminals to kill more police until they catch up... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Under international law it has always been clear a "blockade" is not considered an "occupation". The two are completely different legal distinctions. ... If Jacee wants to pretend Hamas is not interested in taking back Israel she can continue with her fantasy, An interesting point of view that does not appear to contain any argument that has not already been made. When the smoke finally clears there will be calls for the assigning of responsibility and condemnation for the resulting graves. There will still be the same arguments; "God is on our side" and "we are killing them because they are killing us" and the beauty - "They are the ones who started it". The killing score will still be front and center of the discussion. The Palestinians will be emphasising it ( if there are any Palestinians left) and the Israelis will be trying to explain it. Most political pundits will declare a tie - the same as the last few wars and that Lebanon expedition. I think Hamas "wins" a tie and continues to exist. It will probably play for that tie. Unless this conflict results in a genocide of the Palestinian people (Israel wins by default - nobody left) there will remain elements prepared to do what they can to fight the Israelis. Same old, same old. Nothing there seems to change - except the score. That is why I keep the score. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Big Guy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 The police kill more criminals than the criminals do police. Therefore, by this logic, the police are being horribly unfair and should allow the criminals to kill more police until they catch up... It appears that your post is directed to me. I acknowledge that I have seen it. It would be impolite not to do so. I personally find you an irritant and your recent posts meant to irritate. Shooo. Go away. Buzz off. Go irritate somebody else. Sorry, I am not interested in engaging in any dialogue with you or your opinions. Until/if/when you change your approach I will be responding in this manner. Have a nice day. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Rue Posted July 31, 2014 Author Report Posted July 31, 2014 GNNNNNF Big Guy. First off thanks for even responding. I appreciate your level headed responses. I do because its a highly emotional issue for me and you are right I am repeating myself. I am frustrated with your position. I am frustrated not with you but the position. I appreciate your right to state it. I am frustrated with any deaths on either size. I would despise anyone thinking its a tie or a win for anyone. Death is death. Its a failure. Its a falure to find a way to disarm terrorists so that moderate people on both sides can live in peace and work side by side. For the first time I will remain brief. Quote
Boges Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 I personally find you an irritant and your recent posts meant to irritate. Shooo. Go away. Buzz off. Go irritate somebody else. Sorry, I am not interested in engaging in any dialogue with you or your opinions. Until/if/when you change your approach I will be responding in this manner. Have a nice day. Quote
Army Guy Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Uh: who works in a media centre? I get what your trying to say, but i don't make the rules, media centers and thier infra structure are targets, normally these attacks would happen during the quite hours when the buildings are not packed....But that does not change the fact that they are targets...you also have to remember that it is the commanders responability to "limit" civilian cas, no where does it say that an attack on a legit target can not have civilian cas...Again i did not write the rules, be it genva convention or inter national law regarding rules of war.. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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