bush_cheney2004 Posted June 1, 2014 Report Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) Of course not. That's not their mandate. However, even they concede the point: And (to coin a phrase) "they were for it before they were against it." Gun shows are not the same as private firearms sales with state boundaries. No license or checks required, and no NRA support to regulate such activity. So there should be no restriction on the 2nd Amendment? Any American, whether they be convicted violent criminals, or mentally ill, or 9 years old, or senile, shall have the absolute and indisputable right to own firearms, without restriction? Is that how the courts have generally interpreted it? Convicted felons may not own firearms. That's the part the NRA talks about...enforce existing laws. Otherwise, law abiding citizens have the right to legally own and bear arms, as affirmed by court rulings that struck down unconstitutional gun laws. Edited June 1, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jbg Posted June 1, 2014 Author Report Posted June 1, 2014 So rather than gun control, you would prefer a system where those who acquire too many guns and are perceived as a potential threat be pre-emptively "knocked off"? Sounds radical to me. You're off on a tangent. We need to engage our neighbors and family members better. That is my main point. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
BubberMiley Posted June 1, 2014 Report Posted June 1, 2014 I'm on a tangent? I'm just trying to understand what your message is. So far I've got nuclear weapons can't be disinvented, unless they can, and we should engage our neighbours, unless they're mullahs, in which case we should knock them off. Quote "I think it's fun watching the waldick get all excited/knickers in a knot over something." -scribblet
cybercoma Posted June 1, 2014 Report Posted June 1, 2014 Convicted felons may not own firearms. That's the part the NRA talks about...enforce existing laws.What does enforcing the existing laws look like when a convicted felon can just pick up a gun in a private sale, no record, no regulations, no tracking, no background check, nothing? Take us through how the existing laws are actually enforced when private sales are not monitored or regulated. Quote
jbg Posted June 2, 2014 Author Report Posted June 2, 2014 I'm on a tangent? I'm just trying to understand what your message is. So far I've got nuclear weapons can't be disinvented, unless they can, and we should engage our neighbours, unless they're mullahs, in which case we should knock them off. Did you read the part about keeping track of the mental well-being of the socially shunned? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 2, 2014 Report Posted June 2, 2014 What does enforcing the existing laws look like .... It looks like any other law enforcement activity that you watch on American television. It looks like parole officers following up on felons with visits to residences. It looks like police officers calling in routine checks for possession found in automobiles. It looks like sheriff offices checking social media for obvious evidence of convicted felons in possession of firearms. It looks like sting operations to catch felons trying to buy firearms. http://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2014/orlando-felon-sentenced-for-possession-of-firearm-and-impersonating-a-dea-agent Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted June 2, 2014 Report Posted June 2, 2014 Gun shows are not the same as private firearms sales with state boundaries. No license or checks required, and no NRA support to regulate such activity. Convicted felons may not own firearms. That's the part the NRA talks about...enforce existing laws. Otherwise, law abiding citizens have the right to legally own and bear arms, as affirmed by court rulings that struck down unconstitutional gun laws. Only potential convicted felons may own firearms. You know, diagnosed mentally ill people who post raving mysoginistic videos on their facebook page. They should have all the guns they want. Quote
kimmy Posted June 2, 2014 Report Posted June 2, 2014 Gun shows are not the same as private firearms sales with state boundaries. No license or checks required, and no NRA support to regulate such activity. Big deal. We've gone from talking about The Constitutional Right To Bear Arms to an administrative triviality. If requiring a background check to buy a gun at a gun-show isn't a violation of his constitutional rights, then requiring a background check to buy a gun from a private seller isn't a violation of his constitutional rights. Convicted felons may not own firearms. That's the part the NRA talks about...enforce existing laws. Otherwise, law abiding citizens have the right to legally own and bear arms, as affirmed by court rulings that struck down unconstitutional gun laws. Ok, so not all Americans have the right to own firearms. Apparently the 2nd amendment isn't without limitation after all. So why convicted felons but not crazy-people? It looks like any other law enforcement activity that you watch on American television. It looks like parole officers following up on felons with visits to residences. It looks like police officers calling in routine checks for possession found in automobiles. It looks like sheriff offices checking social media for obvious evidence of convicted felons in possession of firearms. It looks like sting operations to catch felons trying to buy firearms. http://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2014/orlando-felon-sentenced-for-possession-of-firearm-and-impersonating-a-dea-agent That might be how it's done right now, but so what? This is once again dickering over an administrative triviality. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 2, 2014 Report Posted June 2, 2014 Big deal. We've gone from talking about The Constitutional Right To Bear Arms to an administrative triviality. If requiring a background check to buy a gun at a gun-show isn't a violation of his constitutional rights, then requiring a background check to buy a gun from a private seller isn't a violation of his constitutional rights. Wrong....FFL gun sales are regulated commerce subject to state and federal law. Ownership rights for citizens exist independent of commerce. Ok, so not all Americans have the right to own firearms. Apparently the 2nd amendment isn't without limitation after all. So why convicted felons but not crazy-people? Because not all crazy people are convicted felons. It's not complicated. That might be how it's done right now, but so what? This is once again dickering over an administrative triviality. So was your stupid Gun Registry, something that no longer exists. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
BC_chick Posted June 2, 2014 Report Posted June 2, 2014 No. I 'm talkin gabout people being mindful of their neighbors and community. Is that so radical? Befriending a psychotic murderer is not going to stop a potential rampage. BubberMiley got you on this one, it sounds like you're saying to hug a terrorist to solve all the problems. The underlying issue is not going to be solved. If anything, you need to befriend those who have influence on the mentally ill person because they have more access to the person. Concern from parents need to be taken seriously, it seems most of these boys fell through the cracks even when there was plenty of information provided beforehand. To associate it once again to hugging a terrorist, I think the same method should apply. The masses know there is ill amongst them, that's who you need on your side as an ally. You definitely don't want to kill them as collateral damage. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
jbg Posted June 2, 2014 Author Report Posted June 2, 2014 Befriending a psychotic murderer is not going to stop a potential rampage. BubberMiley got you on this one, it sounds like you're saying to hug a terrorist to solve all the problems. The underlying issue is not going to be solved.I sense you're making conservative arguments here. My argument is that not necessarily that hugging a terrorist or psychotic murdered is a great idea. But some people, if brought into the greater community, may decide to live a new and better life than as an explosive loner. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
On Guard for Thee Posted June 3, 2014 Report Posted June 3, 2014 Wrong....FFL gun sales are regulated commerce subject to state and federal law. Ownership rights for citizens exist independent of commerce. Because not all crazy people are convicted felons. It's not complicated. So was your stupid Gun Registry, something that no longer exists. That "stupid" gun registry still exists. Just under a different "stupid" name. I could use that word one more time, but I won't. Quote
BC_chick Posted June 3, 2014 Report Posted June 3, 2014 I sense you're making conservative arguments here. My argument is that not necessarily that hugging a terrorist or psychotic murdered is a great idea. But some people, if brought into the greater community, may decide to live a new and better life than as an explosive loner. I didn't make a conservative argument. I stated my position on dealing with psychotic murderers and terrorists and it was a pretty lefty position. You just conveniently clipped it out and quoted me out of context. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
Moonlight Graham Posted June 4, 2014 Report Posted June 4, 2014 "Preventing Mass Murders; It's the Person, not the Weapon". Well, I think it's both. A person with emotional/psychological issues can be a danger to commit violent acts, and helping these people will obviously reduce violent rampages. But it's also not possible to prevent 100% of violent acts, and the types of weapons available to people and their ease of access is also going to influence murder death tolls. Both issues need to be addressed. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
monty16 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Posted June 4, 2014 Well, I think it's both. A person with emotional/psychological issues can be a danger to commit violent acts, and helping these people will obviously reduce violent rampages. But it's also not possible to prevent 100% of violent acts, and the types of weapons available to people and their ease of access is also going to influence murder death tolls. Both issues need to be addressed. The American mindset is not to help people who would commit horrendous mass murders, it's to jail them for a while and harden them more. Then they make sure the weapon to commit the crime is easily available because it's dere rits! Sit down and break out the popcorn and let's not fret about something they alone can fix. Hollywood fiction can't compete with this stuff! Quote
jbg Posted June 8, 2014 Author Report Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) Well, I think it's both. A person with emotional/psychological issues can be a danger to commit violent acts, and helping these people will obviously reduce violent rampages. But it's also not possible to prevent 100% of violent acts, and the types of weapons available to people and their ease of access is also going to influence murder death tolls. Both issues need to be addressed.The American mindset is not to help people who would commit horrendous mass murders, it's to jail them for a while and harden them more. Then they make sure the weapon to commit the crime is easily available because it's dere rits! Sit down and break out the popcorn and let's not fret about something they alone can fix. Hollywood fiction can't compete with this stuff! What about this charming gentleman, Daniel St. Hubert (link, excerpts below to background and (second link about his ingenuity with weaponry: Link Number 1 Excerpts: NYPD detectives arrested a 27-year-old parolee Wednesday night in connection with the fatal stabbing of a 6-year-old boy and the wounding of a 7-year-old girl in Brooklyn on Sunday, officials said. *************** The source, who didn't want to be identified, said that St. Hubert, who was only paroled from state prison on May 23, was in possession of an 8-inch kitchen knife similar to one used in Sunday's attack. *********************** St. Hubert was sought in the fatal stabbing on Sunday afternoon of Prince Joshua Avitto, 6, and critically injuring with a knife his playmate Mikayla Capers, 7, as the children were in an elevator on their way to get ice cream at Boulevard Houses in Bedford-Stuyvesant. Police also said he was a possible suspect in the Friday fatal stabbing in Brooklyn of Tanya Copeland, 18. Link Number 2 Excerpts St. Hubert repeatedly defied his jailers, was caught with a weapon and “stolen property,” and in one case slugged a guard in the shoulder. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/brooklyn-kid-stabber-engaged-violent-conduct-prison-records-article-1.1819815#ixzz343BCczMg *********************** Two months later, guards found a “weapon fashioned from a metal can lid wrapped in tissue in St. Hubert’s locker.” Then in March 2013, while at the Great Meadow Correctional Facility, St. Hubert punched a correction officer in the shoulder after refusing to get back in line. ************************ While in prison, St. Hubert was made to serve his full five-year sentence because he refused psychiatric treatment, officials said. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/brooklyn-kid-stabber-engaged-violent-conduct-prison-records-article-1.1819815#ixzz343BWbCBh And gun laws would have helped how? Edited June 8, 2014 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
eyeball Posted June 8, 2014 Report Posted June 8, 2014 And gun laws would have helped how? They could point in the direction we take to address knife crimes. Never bring a knife crime to a gun law debate - be careful what you wish for otherwise. I still think the best approaches are way way WAY more funding for both public education about mental illness and treatment and improved product safety research for guns and knives. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
monty16 Posted June 8, 2014 Report Posted June 8, 2014 What about this charming gentleman, Daniel St. Hubert (link, excerpts below to background and (second link about his ingenuity with weaponry: Link Number 1 Excerpts: NYPD detectives arrested a 27-year-old parolee Wednesday night in connection with the fatal stabbing of a 6-year-old boy and the wounding of a 7-year-old girl in Brooklyn on Sunday, officials said. *************** The source, who didn't want to be identified, said that St. Hubert, who was only paroled from state prison on May 23, was in possession of an 8-inch kitchen knife similar to one used in Sunday's attack. *********************** St. Hubert was sought in the fatal stabbing on Sunday afternoon of Prince Joshua Avitto, 6, and critically injuring with a knife his playmate Mikayla Capers, 7, as the children were in an elevator on their way to get ice cream at Boulevard Houses in Bedford-Stuyvesant. Police also said he was a possible suspect in the Friday fatal stabbing in Brooklyn of Tanya Copeland, 18. Link Number 2 Excerpts St. Hubert repeatedly defied his jailers, was caught with a weapon and “stolen property,” and in one case slugged a guard in the shoulder. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/brooklyn-kid-stabber-engaged-violent-conduct-prison-records-article-1.1819815#ixzz343BCczMg *********************** Two months later, guards found a “weapon fashioned from a metal can lid wrapped in tissue in St. Hubert’s locker.” Then in March 2013, while at the Great Meadow Correctional Facility, St. Hubert punched a correction officer in the shoulder after refusing to get back in line. ************************ While in prison, St. Hubert was made to serve his full five-year sentence because he refused psychiatric treatment, officials said. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/brooklyn-kid-stabber-engaged-violent-conduct-prison-records-article-1.1819815#ixzz343BWbCBh And gun laws would have helped how? I don't get your point in quoting all this about a knife killing. Are you suggesting that your country doesn't have a really big gun problem? I'm answering you because I'm pretending to care? Quote
jbg Posted June 9, 2014 Author Report Posted June 9, 2014 They could point in the direction we take to address knife crimes. Never bring a knife crime to a gun law debate - be careful what you wish for otherwise. I still think the best approaches are way way WAY more funding for both public education about mental illness and treatment and improved product safety research for guns and knives. I don't get your point in quoting all this about a knife killing. Are you suggesting that your country doesn't have a really big gun problem? I'm answering you because I'm pretending to care? My point is that guns are hardly necessary for some pretty serious bloodbaths. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Black Dog Posted June 9, 2014 Report Posted June 9, 2014 My point is that guns are hardly necessary for some pretty serious bloodbaths. One has to wonder then why so many mass killers opt for firearms over other methods. Quote
GostHacked Posted June 9, 2014 Report Posted June 9, 2014 One has to wonder then why so many mass killers opt for firearms over other methods. Bravery of being out of range. Quote
Rue Posted June 9, 2014 Report Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) Moonlight summarized it very well. What we are concerned about in Canada are handguns and lethal weapons in the hands of criminals and the mentally ill and idiots who get drunk, think they are hunters go out, shoot each other and destroy wildlife and do not eat it and just leave it to rot. I had to learn to use a gun. I do not understand why some people want them. Necessity hunters I get and yes gun registry can be a pain for them, They are trying to eat. Its a tool of necessity for them. Others? No I do not get it. I can see using it for competitive target shooting yes or skeet shooting sure...but to think you can carry one around as a weapon and be able to use it? Jin a gun club and self regulate. To me unless you are a necessity hunter, soldier or police officer or park warden,you do not need one. I also support the police on this one. No exposing them to guns if its possible. One other thing, I think anyone who thinks they could use a gun under an extreme condition go talk to a soldier or police officer or someone who is a member of a proper hunting association or gun club, They will set you straight. Guns require discipline and control. You have to learn to focus and breath and concentrate.You don't just grab one and start blasting. I shudder to think how many more mad people killing others would happen in Canada if our guns were more accessible. Edited June 9, 2014 by Rue Quote
GostHacked Posted June 9, 2014 Report Posted June 9, 2014 They just don't go around blasting their guns? TV must have it all wrong then. Quote
Black Dog Posted June 9, 2014 Report Posted June 9, 2014 Bravery of being out of range. More like simple efficiency. If you want an easy way to kill a lot of people in a short period of time, there's nothing better than guns. Quote
GostHacked Posted June 9, 2014 Report Posted June 9, 2014 More like simple efficiency. If you want an easy way to kill a lot of people in a short period of time, there's nothing better than guns. You know you could go after the gun manufacturers instead of the people using them. If it was not for companies making guns, we would not have this issue. One reason we have these types of weapons is because of the military and wars. Quote
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