Ontario Budget 2014 -- Election

[Michael Hardner]

Let's say Hudak gets a minority, just for a debate. The other two parties are against anything he wants to do and so he has no confidence. So, does that mean the two other parties could form a governing party and the Premier would be the party with the second most votes and IF so, are we back were we started??

Yes, this happened in 1985 in the same configuration as what you're describing. This led to the ascent of Bob Rae too.

[Scotty]

Do you think you've paid more than salary COL adjustment, population growth, and infrastructure status quo maintenance (ie. Failures accelerate faster each year) each year in tax increases?

Their first year in power, the Liberals brought in a huge tax increase, including the new health care premium which, taken together, would have completely eliminated the deficit. In fact, during the Liberals' time in power they have increased taxes by 50%. The problem is they've INCREASED SPENDING by 75%!!

So are you going to try to tell me that Ontario has grown by 75% since 2003? AS for inflation, it's been moribund at best, averaging 1%-2% during that time.

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/04/17/ontario-budget-wynn/

[Scotty]

There's tons of research that shows this causes more trouble for those students. It's better to have them in the same classes with their peers than isolating them.

But those aren't their peers. And they used to be in special classes, not just so more attention could be paid to them but so they didn't interfere with the education of other children.

[Scotty]

Scratch laying off then and replace with "eliminating 100k jobs in spite of the number of people ready and willing to work who can't find jobs."

So do you think it would help our economy to hire 100,000 more government workers then? Or maybe 200,000? Or 500,000?

[Scotty]

That's much more expensive than supporting them with EA's in regular schools.

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How is that possible? With EAs in a regular school you're talking about a 1-1 teacher student ratio. Don't you think if they put fifteen of them into a special class they'd need less than 15 people taking care of them?

[Scotty]

Hudak himself claimed he would give 10,000 educational support workers alone their pink slips

When? Cite? At the debate when he was challenged on how many he would get rid of he said "None".

You have a point here....one that is complete at odds with the jackass at the help of the Ontario PC party. The cost of special schools, the required transportation along with the teachers and support workers is completely cost prohibitive.

Explain why, please. If they've already got a 1 to 1 ratio of EA's to special needs students how can that possibly get any bigger in a special school? How can it not get smaller? And a desk and a room cost the same wether it's for special needs students or anyone else. On a macro scale there's no cost increase.

[Scotty]

I am all for measured and sensible cuts to both education and public services in general. Unfortunately, that's not what Hudak is proposing.

And what measured and sensible cuts to education and public services would you accept?

On the education front we should be discussing the the end of public funding for separate religious education. We should be scrapping the EQAO. We should be merging school boards and fixing compensation gains to the rate of inflation.

So your way to save money is by taking all the students currently under the Catholic boards and putting them under the public boards. How exactly would this save money given most studies I've heard of claim not only that Catholic schools provide better educations but do so more efficiently and effectively? Getting rid of teacher testing is just a guarantee of lousy teachers, and on a macro scale that costs us money. In fact, we should be making it much easier to fire nonperforming teachers.

[jacee]

How is that possible? With EAs in a regular school you're talking about a 1-1 teacher student ratio. Don't you think if they put fifteen of them into a special class they'd need less than 15 people taking care of them?

Segregated facilities cannot accomplish the primary educational goal of supporting students to function in society. That's why we don't have them any more. Students progress better when surrounded by chronological peers displaying normal (eta) age-appropriate behaviour. That's a fact.

Segregated facilities cost money - purchasing land, building and maintaining the facilities, administration and support, additional costs of transporting students out of their neighbourhood, etc.

I'm not well informed about current educational practices, and it varies from place to place, but 1-1 support is necessary for some students when they are in regular classes though there may be other times when they are in special classes of about 8 students with a teacher and perhaps an EA.

Going back to the dark ages of shuttling them off to segregated facilities with only each other as role models just isn't helpful or likely.

Edited June 7, 2014 by jacee

[PIK]

That's a blatant lie, PIK.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipperwash_Crisis

Acting Sergeant Ken Deane (October 1961 February 25, 2006) was convicted of criminal negligence causing death.[9]Deane's defence was that he had believed that Dudley George was carrying a rifle.

The judge rejected Deane's claim, stating: "I find, sir, that you were not honest in presenting this version of events ...

Deane and two other important OPP witnesses died before they could testify at the Inquiry. One was the incident commander.They were expected to testify about the source of the order for use of deadly force - ie whether there was political interference ... by Mike Harris.

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No it is not, they were known to always be armed. I trust the cop more then a judge in this country.

[jacee]

So your way to save money is by taking all the students currently under the Catholic boards and putting them under the public boards. How exactly would this save money given most studies I've heard of claim not only that Catholic schools provide better educations but do so more efficiently and effectively?

CITE?

Getting rid of teacher testing is just a guarantee of lousy teachers, and on a macro scale that costs us money. In fact, we should be making it much easier to fire nonperforming teachers.

EQAO does student achievement testing, not "teacher testing".

What you are talking about is performance appraisal.

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[Topaz]

Don't the Catholics kids learn about sex under the religion classes? So are we going to have religion back in the schools, if they are tossed together?? There are definite differences with the school systems and I bet most MPP's kids go to private schools.

[PIK]

Saw Hudak on the local TV news tonight, being interviewed. He said he wasn't going to commit money to phase 2 of the Ottawa LRT project. The Liberals have already promised the money. Not sure about the NDP.

I liked him turning it down. He said he wasn't willing to promise money when Ontario was broke and he had no idea where it would come from. Wynne has promised billions to Toronto with no idea where the money will come from, and has no problem promising more to Ottawa. Hudak says after the budget is balanced he'll look at things. I like that attitude.

Have the liberals promised them the money?? She said it would be a priority for her, she did not say yes you will get it.

[PIK]

Agreed. In general I like that attitude as well. Unfortunately, his horrible plan for education, the ill advised corporate tax cuts and his imaginary jobs BS expose the combative, Harris-like times he will return us to. I feel for the students Hudak will punish, not only with a weaker educational environment, but also with the inevitable loss of trips, clubs and extracurricular activities. The secondary school years should be fun and memorable. Hudak will snuff out many of the highlights and unfortunately these are times the kids don't get back.

It's unfortunate, that at time when the province really needed a sensible change of direction that Hudak and his deficient platform are the best the PCs could come up with.

Horrible plan for education?? teaching kids how to do math again instead of teaching them anal sex by grade 8. Are you kidding me?

[jacee]

No it is not, they were known to always be armed.

That's a lie. I guess you didn't follow the inquiry. The most significant information about 'guns' came from Dudley George's uncle. When Justice Linden pressed him on the matter of guns on the Ipperwash site he said:

'If we'd had a gun, there would have been one dead cop that night ... but we didn't have any!'

I trust the cop more then a judge in this country.

Too bad 3 cops were disposed of before the Inquiry so they couldn't tell the truth to the judge about who gave what orders.

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Edited June 6, 2014 by jacee

[PIK]

Who's "they" again so we may qualify that response appropriately.

And you can't figure out ''they'' come on now,you are just playing stupid.

[PIK]

That's a lie.

Too bad 3 cops were disposed of before the Inquiry so they couldn't tell the truth.

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No it is not. And let see now you are trying to say the government took them out??

Edited June 6, 2014 by PIK

[jacee]

No it is not. And let see now you are trying to say the government took them out??

Gee ... what do you think?

Who benefitted from the deaths of the 3 cops who knew where the orders came from?

If this is all news to you, then you aren't well-informed enough to make the libellous claims you've made here.

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Edited June 6, 2014 by jacee

[Bob Macadoo]

And you can't figure out ''they'' come on now,you are just playing stupid.

Trying to back away from that bigotted statement now?

[cybercoma]

So do you think it would help our economy to hire 100,000 more government workers then? Or maybe 200,000? Or 500,000?

Yes it would actually. It would stop the wealthy from stockpiling their money and put it into the hands of those that would create demand for industry, further encouraging them to stop sitting on the handouts the government has been giving them over the years.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Horrible plan for education?? teaching kids how to do math again instead of teaching them anal sex by grade 8. Are you kidding me?

Wait... where exactly do kids learn that stuff in the curriculum? The only thing I remember were religious folk being up in arms because the curriculum was going to be updated to a modern level of tolerance to mention things like "non-traditional couples". Next thing you know, because these religious and intolerant folk hate homosexuals and non-traditional people, they claim that anal sex is being promoted because it mentions same sex male relationships.

Edited June 7, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Going back to the dark ages of shuttling them off to segregated facilities with only each other as role models just isn't helpful or likely.

Although, they do perform better when with peers with similar needs. They feel less under the microscope and more able to be themselves when everyone in the room has the same issue.

That being said, some level of integration is good. But, the current climate is integration at all costs. We have students with ASD (and likely many other issues like ODD, IED, Sociopathy, etc where the parents refuse to accept as a diagnosis because they sound bad) who have broken staff arms, regularly take classrooms hostage with their screaming, cussing and threatening behaviour because the system lets them act that way. Some of them do it on purpose but the label ASD protects them from any consequences.

If they are not a threat to the well being of other students, they full integration is OK. As soon as safety is compromised, they need to be in a more therapeutic environment.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

So your way to save money is by taking all the students currently under the Catholic boards and putting them under the public boards. How exactly would this save money given most studies I've heard of claim not only that Catholic schools provide better educations but do so more efficiently and effectively? Getting rid of teacher testing is just a guarantee of lousy teachers, and on a macro scale that costs us money. In fact, we should be making it much easier to fire nonperforming teachers.

Catholic schools actively participate in immoral behaviour by not providing programs for special needs and giving up on behavioural students rather than help them. They get sent to the public boards thereby artificially improving the segregated system score, while lowering the public score.

Ever wonder why so many communities have half empty schools where millions of dollars went into building a new Catholic school in the last 10 years? Wasted money because the Catholics demand building new schools where public schools already exist. The result is Catholic schools wasting tax payer money to build luxurious schools with public money so that the public schools can sit half empty...

Do we really need twice the bureaucracy in education? People who don't actively contribute to education but make up a bunch of policies at the board office? Cutting them in half would have 0 impact on the quality of education.

Segregation wasn't okay when it was based on race. It's still not okay when it's based on religion.

[CPCFTW]

Yes it would actually. It would stop the wealthy from stockpiling their money and put it into the hands of those that would create demand for industry, further encouraging them to stop sitting on the handouts the government has been giving them over the years.

Lol. It's science guys!

[cybercoma]

Lol. It's science guys!

insightful

[CPCFTW]

insightful

Money that corporations hold is invested in money market funds and cash instruments. Banks utilize those funds to make consumer loans so that people can buy houses and cars. Lesson: any money that companies are "sitting on" is reinvested into the economy several times through bank lending.

FYI most of the money that companies are sitting on could not delever the company (pay off all their debt). So when you reaf your progressive blogs about how much money corporations are sitting on, remember that they have ongoing debt and interest obligations to satisfy with that cash and they could simply delever their companies if they believed there were no future growth opportunities.