MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Ipsos released a poll that had the NDP up to the high 20's while Forum released a poll saying the NDP had tanked. Wynne is pretty much saying a vote for the NDP is a vote for Satan. If the NDP have tanked the Liberals will cruise to victory. Who's right though? I kind of hope we do see a majority only to prove that Pollsters are absolutely full of crap. Apparently pollsters had this Eric Cantor guy in Virginia with a 20 point lead. At the start of this I was predicting Hudak minority. Polls seem to indicate I was wrong. I don't agree with all of his policies but, at some point incompetence has to catch up with the party in power, doesn't it? Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Boges Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Posted June 12, 2014 So the grid system is a carrot inorder to keep people because they know their pay will eventually go up? How about some metric to determine which teachers actually deserve a raise? Those Art degrees only exist because people think they can make a living teach. There are way more people with teaching degrees than fulltime jobs available in Ontario. The college actually doubled the time needed to get a degree to lower the number of people thinking they can just take an extra year of school and snagging a teaching job. Quote
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) So you have no problem teaching little kids about that? Makes me wonder about you. So has the guy that tried to push this thru , has he gone to court yet for his perverted behaviour?? I have no problem with the mention of non-traditional relationships, and non-traditional gender identities. It's not like they show how they work sexually together. Just that they exist. I don't believe in oppressing, demoralizing and demonizing individuals who don't fit the norm from a young age. Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Moonbox Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Doctors and lawyers also make several times more than teachers for that reason. But the way you and some other talk, you would have teachers making just a bit more than people working at McDonalds or Walmart. No, that's not at all what anyone is saying. That's just your attempt to trivialize their argument. When you combine a teacher's salary, benefits and paid time-off (3 months!) you end up with a compensation package that's so far beyond the average in Canada that the argument you're comment is ridiculous. So? People in the private sector can leave their jobs and work for someone down the street if they don't get raises appropriate for their experience. Teachers can't quit and go get a job at the school down the street for more money. Teachers are overpaid already, by a long shot. They're also in excess supply. If teachers' compensation was reasonable to begin with (and per pupil costs hadn't risen over 50% from 2002-2011), then perhaps the increases would be justified. If you're already overpaid, however, the idea that you should get regular raises is just funny. Edited June 12, 2014 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Boges Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Posted June 12, 2014 At the start of this I was predicting Hudak minority. Polls seem to indicate I was wrong. I don't agree with all of his policies but, at some point incompetence has to catch up with the party in power, doesn't it? Sure if he loses this he's done. I think if he wasn't "honest" and just hammered Wynne for her record he might have been fine. But once he said he'd lower the public service he gave fuel to Wynne to say he was going to fire 100,000 people, even that wasn't what he said at all. Liberals are better liars I guess. I've read and heard reports that Wynne is preparing her own austerity but not talking about it. Ontario can't continue spending at this clip and hope to ever climb out of deficit. McGuinty knew that, that's why he picked a fight with the teachers but the Gas Plant scandal made him political dynamite. Quote
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 How about some metric to determine which teachers actually deserve a raise? You can ask teachers and they'll tell you who isn't up to the professional level they want themselves represented as. Teacher's hate poor performers too, they don't like people sullying their good name. The problem is, with any beaurocracy, when Administration in the public sector is in charge of who deserves the raise the wrong people will be penalized. The people who will be penalized are the teachers who are tough on their students because they are trying to actually teach them something, parents don't want to hear about their kids failures or lower class averages. Administrators never see what goes on in the classroom, they are overloaded with paperwork and other duties the ministry and school board puts on them on top of their regular duties. This means that all you need to look good in modern education are a few extraordinary lessons to talk about, and to make sure that you stop in to be pleasant and happy with Admin, or give away A's so that parents think their kids have been super successful in your class. Teacher's know when someone is giving away A's, Teacher's know when someone is showing movies 80% of the time, teacher's know when someone shows up 15 minutes late, cancels classses for a day (illegal but happens), and let their classes out 30 minutes early because the classroom teacher didn't want to teach... If we could foster self-regulation of teaching, I think it would be more successful that the current model at weeding out poor performers. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
cybercoma Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 final 308 aggregate polling projection: I'm still calling ONPC on this one. I believe they will be better able to mobilize their base and I also believe the NDP will split the vote in the important Toronto-area ridings. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 How about some metric to determine which teachers actually deserve a raise? The problem is agreeing to a metric. You can't use academic outcomes because 1) teachers will teach the tests, and 2) academic outcomes are dependant on a wide variety of things outside the teachers' control. Quote
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Liberals are better liars I guess. I've read and heard reports that Wynne is preparing her own austerity but not talking about it. No one likes hearing the truth. The Obama model of "hope and change" politics is what the people want. Wynne already PO'd teachers by extending austerity measures from the Bill 115 MoU, a bill that was repealed and still being challenged in court. The austerity is coming regardless of who is in power. No one should think that it isn't, and the Liberal budget was simply a trap set for the NDP to fal into. It has not really been covered yet because it hasn't taken effect until the teacher contracts run out. But, if you saw the news about the strike pay enhancement for teachers... you know that they are preparing for it. I think Hudak would have been a lot better off if he had said from the start "Through attrition, we would find efficiencies of 100,000 civil servants." because that was what he meant. But, he chose the hard line sounding language to appeal to his base. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
cybercoma Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 No, that's not at all what anyone is saying. That's just your attempt to trivialize their argument. When you combine a teacher's salary, benefits and paid time-off (3 months!) you end up with a compensation package that's so far beyond the average in Canada that the argument you're comment is ridiculous. Why should teachers make the "average"? Quote
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) I'm still calling ONPC on this one. I believe they will be better able to mobilize their base and I also believe the NDP will split the vote in the important Toronto-area ridings. I've heard a few people calling this. I could see it happening. After all, if something doesn't happen after this election that changes the makeup of the Provincial legislature... Won't the opposition parties look silly? Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Boges Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Posted June 12, 2014 I think Hudak would have been a lot better off if he had said from the start "Through attrition, we would find efficiencies of 100,000 civil servants." because that was what he meant. But, he chose the hard line sounding language to appeal to his base. He said that from the start! He said any given year 5-10% of the public service is lost through attrition. He also said it during the debate and Wynne said he was sanitizing his plan to fire everyone. Smokey Thomas from OPSEU has said you could get rid of plenty of Middle Managers. He also said Wynne is a liar http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/10/wynne-is-lying-and-cuts-are-coming-union-president Wynne has been a Big Fat Liar this entire campaign and it's likely to pay off. I guess we deserve the government we get. Quote
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) He said that from the start! He said any given year 5-10% of the public service is lost through attrition. He also said it during the debate and Wynne said he was sanitizing his plan to fire everyone. Smokey Thomas from OPSEU has said you could get rid of plenty of Middle Managers. He also said Wynne is a liar http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/10/wynne-is-lying-and-cuts-are-coming-union-president Wynne has been a Big Fat Liar this entire campaign and it's likely to pay off. I guess we deserve the government we get. Well then I fell into the "headlines" too if he originally clarified at the beginning. Again being related to so many teachers, There are lots of non-teaching but "teacher" positions that aren't necessary. Teacher's will openly tell you where the waste is too... The problem is that when Administration cuts costs, it's usually on parts that matter so they can keep their pet projects. EA's are essential, the people boards send to conferences around the province on tax payer dime are not. Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Boges Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Posted June 12, 2014 Well then I fell into the "headlines" too if he originally clarified at the beginning. Again being related to so many teachers, There are lots of non-teaching but "teacher" positions that aren't necessary. Teacher's will openly tell you where the waste is too... The problem is that when Administration cuts costs, it's usually on parts that matter so they can keep their pet projects. EA's are essential, the people boards send to conferences around the province on tax payer dime are not. School Boards do that too. If they can't balance their budget they threaten to fire teachers. Bunch of Crooks! Quote
Moonbox Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Why should teachers make the "average"? Again, nice straw man. I didn't suggest they should make the average. Indeed, I believe they should make more than average. Right now, however, their compensation packages are so far beyond average, and so far beyond their skills and qualifications compared to what they'd make in the private sector, that it's difficult to have any sympathy for them. Teacher's will openly tell you where the waste is too... Yes, my teacher friends tell me about how much money they make, what their benefits are like, and all the travelling they do in the summer. Edited June 12, 2014 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
PIK Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) He said that from the start! He said any given year 5-10% of the public service is lost through attrition. He also said it during the debate and Wynne said he was sanitizing his plan to fire everyone. Smokey Thomas from OPSEU has said you could get rid of plenty of Middle Managers. He also said Wynne is a liar http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/10/wynne-is-lying-and-cuts-are-coming-union-president Wynne has been a Big Fat Liar this entire campaign and it's likely to pay off. I guess we deserve the government we get. If the media gave the same to hudak as they do the others then most people would know he said attrition right form the start. But when the media's own union says do not vote hudask, does he stand a chance?? But I am betting people will not be so stupid and hudak will win a majority.All said and done ,do you want your hydro to go up another 43%? Edited June 12, 2014 by PIK Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
PIK Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Again, nice straw man. I didn't suggest they should make the average. Indeed, I believe they should make more than average. Right now, however, their compensation packages are so far beyond average, and so far beyond their skills and qualifications compared to what they'd make in the private sector, that it's difficult to have any sympathy for them. Yes, my teacher friends tell me about how much money they make, what their benefits are like, and all the travelling they do in the summer. And my teacher buddy who is a conservative, has said they have been told to get ready to strike no matter who goes in. Because the union has said no new money on the table ,don't bother to show up. I can't believe the sleeze of the unions now, it is sickening. Edited June 12, 2014 by PIK Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Moonbox Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) But I am betting people will not be so stupid and hudak will win a majority.All said and done ,do you want your hydro to go up another 43%? Well you're quoted here saying that. I hope you're right, but I'm almost certain you're wrong. Hudak ran an incompetent campaign on a poorly communicated platform and took an election he'd have to be an idiot to lose, and pretty much lost it. Edited June 12, 2014 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
PIK Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 I have no problem with the mention of non-traditional relationships, and non-traditional gender identities. It's not like they show how they work sexually together. Just that they exist. I don't believe in oppressing, demoralizing and demonizing individuals who don't fit the norm from a young age. Then you have no clue to what I am talking about. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
cybercoma Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Again, nice straw man. I didn't suggest they should make the average.You'll have to forgive me. Surely you can see how it would seem that way when you said: When you combine a teacher's salary, benefits and paid time-off (3 months!) you end up with a compensation package that's so far beyond the average in Canada that the argument you're comment is ridiculous. Your criticism is quite clearly that teachers' pay is "far beyond average," as though average was somehow the benchmark for comparison, although the "average" person doesn't have nearly as much education as a teacher who is earning $70k+ Indeed, I believe they should make more than average.Again, you'll have to forgive me for misunderstanding you, since you said: Teachers are overpaid already, by a long shot. Then you went on to complain about how much lavish their compensation packages are. Well, the average teaching salary across Canada is roughly $70,000 and we're talking mean salary which is not as informative in this discussion as median salary. The median teacher salary in Canada is about $50,000. You're saying someone with multiple degrees and years of post-secondary education can't earn on average $50,000 in the private sector? Executive Directors of NGOs can make that much and more in a year and that's where a lot of these teachers would find themselves in the non-government sector. But you said that they shouldn't make the average salary, but that their $50,000 salaries were WAY too much. So what would you say is fair? In 2010 the median personal income was just about $30,000. So teachers should make more than $30,000, but less than $50,000. What do you suggest is fair for an educated professional that's responsible for teaching and caring for people's kids? Quote
CPCFTW Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Doctors and lawyers also make several times more than teachers for that reason. But the way you and some other talk, you would have teachers making just a bit more than people working at McDonalds or Walmart. What you're forgetting is that teachers work 175-190 days per year vs 235-250 in other jobs. So multiply the teacher salary by about 1.33 for their effective salary. Effectively they start at 60-73k and after 10 years they're making 100-125k with a defined benefit pension plan. Not bad for a BA... Let me rephrase that: excessively high for a BA. Quote
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Yes, my teacher friends tell me about how much money they make, what their benefits are like, and all the travelling they do in the summer. Are people not allowed to have a vacation? Why do we always have to look at teachers who do a lot of work at home and a lot of extra curricular work during the year? Joe Public ignores those facts when slandering them. Why do teachers get so much flack? Meanwhile there are plenty of civil servants who work 37.5 hours a week who take no work home, and are not expected to coach someone else's kids after school or take on an unpaid position. Why does the public have to target teachers, all. the. time.? Why do people think that it's easy to teach a class of 20-32 students, with 4-13 of them having special individual education plans with specific measures that need to be changed just for each student? And then considering that overbearing parents expect you to hold their child's hand through all tasks instead of trying to teach the students to be more self-capable. The reality is much different... Young teachers are overwhelmed at the job requirements and are quitting in droves. The only reason this model is working because we have so many people willing to take a crack, and fail under the stress and job requirements at being a teacher. We can thank the conservative mantra telling everyone how easy it is to be a teacher, and the reality of the job for this unique situation. http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/canada/overwhelmed-canadian-teachers-quitting-in-droves-350533.html Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) But you said that they shouldn't make the average salary, but that their $50,000 salaries were WAY too much. So what would you say is fair? In 2010 the median personal income was just about $30,000. So teachers should make more than $30,000, but less than $50,000. What do you suggest is fair for an educated professional that's responsible for teaching and caring for people's kids? The truth is that nothing will ever be low enough for many. Does anyone have the number on median wage for a university graduate? All Sun News ever compares teachers to is the a median or average wage, which includes high school students, high school drop outs, and high school graduates. Which is a clearly dubious inclusion when talking about educated professionals. Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
CPCFTW Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Executive Directors of NGOs can make that much and more in a year and that's where a lot of these teachers would find themselves in the non-government sector. Wow delusional much? That might apply to 1 in 100 people with multiple degrees and years of experience in the private sector if they work hard (years of unpaid overtime), network with the right people, and get lucky. The rest are stuck in mid-level management for most of their careers or they bounce around between middle class jobs. Quote
jacee Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) What you're forgetting is that teachers work 175-190 days per year vs 235-250 in other jobs. So multiply the teacher salary by about 1.33 for their effective salary. Effectively they start at 60-73k and after 10 years they're making 100-125k with a defined benefit pension plan. Not bad for a BA... Let me rephrase that: excessively high for a BA.What you're forgetting, ignoring or unaware of is that teachers work many hours outside of class time on marking, reporting, prep, coaching, running clubs, organizing proms, music events, plays, trips, etc etc etc.They work full time full year hours all crammed into the school year, then take briefcases and boxes home in the summer to prepare for the next year. I am so sick of ignorant idiots trashing teachers!! Depending on subject and experience, some teachers are likely making minimum wage for the time they actually spend. How long would you last in a class full of teenagers CP? Not long I'll bet!! I'd love to see that!! . Edited June 12, 2014 by jacee Quote
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