Ontario Budget 2014 -- Election

[Boges]

STOP! You're both right!

Hudak and Wynne are both bad news!

There's a better choice.

I completely respect Horvath. I think she's getting a bum deal from people in her party. I'd rather see her win than Wynne.

But I don't think her plan is realistic either. I don't think I've ever heard her talk about balancing the budget.

I respect that she, unlike the Liberals, actually cares about middle and low-income earners.

[jacee]

I completely respect Horvath. I think she's getting a bum deal from people in her party. I'd rather see her win than Wynne.

But I don't think her plan is realistic either. I don't think I've ever heard her talk about balancing the budget.

Maybe you should find out more.

Balance Ontario's Books by 2017-18

http://ourplan.ontariondp.ca/?source=homepage

I respect that she, unlike the Liberals, actually cares about middle and low-income earners.

I also respect that she is savvy enough to focus economic efforts on small business and entrepreneurship, where 77% of jobs are created.

.

[Boges]

It would have to be in her plan. But she's not making a deal about it.

With Wynne she says she'll balance the books by 2017 but she really not doing anything to accomplish that, she just hopes revenues pick up.

[Boges]

What do you say NDPers?

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/05/28/kathleen_wynne_leaves_door_open_to_coalition_government_in_ontario_election.html

Liberal Leader Kathleen Wynne is leaving the door open to forming a coalition government in order to stay in power.

“I am not ruling out anything . . . I have demonstrated how I can work in a minority parliament,” Wynne told reporters Wednesday after visiting a full-day kindergarten class at St. Julia Billiart Catholic Elementary School in Markham.

“That’s how I would continue to work in a minority parliament if that is what the people of Ontario decide,” Wynne said referring to the June 12 provincial election.

So if the Tories win a minority would you approve of the Libs and NDP ganging up to form government?

I know the merge the left would love this. But seriously, how can a centrist Liberal approve of this party under this leader?

[Black Dog]

STOP! You're both right!

Hudak and Wynne are both bad news!

There's a better choice.

.

No there isn't.

[cybercoma]

So if the Tories win a minority would you approve of the Libs and NDP ganging up to form government?

"Ganging up."

You know that's how parliaments work.

[Boges]

"Ganging up."

You know that's how parliaments work.

I know how government works. They have every right to do it. But that's still the perception.

Why did Iggy back off of the coalition attempt in 2009? Probably because, for some reason, Canadians don't approve of it.

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4544624-economists-not-convinced-by-hudak-s-math/

Hudak's math is being questioned, apparently

NIAGARA FALLS, Ont. - Tim Hudak was forced to defend his "Million Jobs Plan" Wednesday as a growing number of economists questioned the math behind the Ontario Progressive Conservative leader's promise, which is the centrepiece of his election platform.[/size]

After decades of business-friendly policies being supported by the middle class, are we seeing a sea change in attitudes here ? Public confidence is a big ship to turn, but when it turns it's hard to turn it back.

[cybercoma]

I know how government works. They have every right to do it. But that's still the perception.

Why did Iggy back off of the coalition attempt in 2009? Probably because, for some reason, Canadians don't approve of it.

It doesn't matter whether they approve of it or not. It's democratic and it's the way our institutions work. Most Canadians think our government is the same as the US government. Most Canadians don't even know who the Head of State is. That doesn't matter and their perception doesn't matter. The head of government has to have the confidence of the legislature. If that means a coalition, then that's what it is. Otherwise, Ontarians will be wondering why they're going back to the polls a few months after the next election. Their ignorance is inconsequential.

[Boges]

It doesn't matter whether they approve of it or not. It's democratic and it's the way our institutions work. Most Canadians think our government is the same as the US government. Most Canadians don't even know who the Head of State is. That doesn't matter and their perception doesn't matter. The head of government has to have the confidence of the legislature. If that means a coalition, then that's what it is. Otherwise, Ontarians will be wondering why they're going back to the polls a few months after the next election. Their ignorance is inconsequential.

Which is why I'm asking NDP supporters if they'd support an official coalition with the Liberals, after the election. (Effectively they've been in a coalition with them since the Spring of 2012 anyway)

I think the 2008 attempted coalition has made any Canadian that knows anything about politics fully aware how the system works.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Boges

[jacee]

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4544624-economists-not-convinced-by-hudak-s-math/

Hudak's math is being questioned, apparently

After decades of business-friendly policies being supported by the middle class, are we seeing a sea change in attitudes here ? Public confidence is a big ship to turn, but when it turns it's hard to turn it back.

"I simply believe that permanent tax reductions on job creators, more affordable energy is going to create jobs."

Yay Tim.

Prove it.

Apparently he can't.

.

[CPCFTW]

Which is why I'm asking NDP supporters if they'd support an official coalition with the Liberals, after the election. (Effectively they've been in a coalition with them since the Spring of 2012 anyway)

I think the 2008 attempted coalition has made any Canadian that knows anything about politics fully aware how the system works.

PCs would have the first chance of forming govt anyway so they may just form a coalition with the NDP by backing off the 100k public sector cuts and making some small spending commitments. NDP could say they successfully secured a moderate government with checks to its extreme views and ousted a corrupt government.

[Mighty AC]

No Wynne is bad news. Anyone who thinks the current level of the public service is reasonable is delusional. I don't notice a marked improvement in my government in the last 11 years, but the price of government has skyrocketed.

And Wynne has said she doesn't plan to make efficiencies anywhere. So her pledge to balance the budget is, quite frankly, another Liberal lie.

Hudak is firing 100k public workers to offset the loss of revenue due to a corporate tax cut. It's not really a cost saving move. Hudak claims that tax cut will create 500k jobs. Economists say his claims are complete fiction. The other 500k will be created by measures the Liberals already have in place.

The cutting of thousands of support workers will seriously harm education. If the goal is simply to reduce public spending or even just education spending, there are several more sensible areas to cut from. EQAO standardized testing, provides little in the way of value, actually hampers education and costs the province $35 million per year in operating costs, plus occasional additional grants in the $25M range. Some public school boards could be merged and we should defund publicly funded religious and separate education.

The conservative race to the bottom, by eroding education, health, services, quality of living, wages and tax revenue isn't a sustainable plan at all.

[jacee]

PCs would have the first chance of forming govt anyway so they may just form a coalition with the NDP by backing off the 100k public sector cuts and making some small spending commitments.

Maybe he should just say that now? Edited May 29, 2014 by jacee

[CPCFTW]

Hudak is firing 100k public workers to offset the loss of revenue due to a corporate tax cut. It's not really a cost saving move. Hudak claims that tax cut will create 500k jobs. Economists say his claims are complete fiction. The other 500k will be created by measures the Liberals already have in place.

The other 500k jobs are created from the status quo, not from "measures the Liberals already have in place". The population of Ontario is projected to increase by 1mil in the next 8 years and the 500k jobs would be created through the natural expansion of the economy, not because of the Liberals.

Thought I'd correct you on this since you've repeated this misconception several times now.

[CPCFTW]

Maybe he should just say that now?

We can't have a waffler can we? Unless it's a liberal I suppose.

[Mighty AC]

The other 500k jobs are created from the status quo, not from "measures the Liberals already have in place". The population of Ontario is projected to increase by 1mil in the next 8 years and the 500k jobs would be created through the natural expansion of the economy, not because of the Liberals.

Thought I'd correct you on this since you've repeated this misconception several times now.

Great. Yes let's get specific. 500,000 jobs are expected to be created through growth with current policies that are in place under this current Liberal government. So Tim's plan is really only a 500k idea. But he will be firing 100,000 people so his Million Jobs plan is really 400k jobs PR stunt and economists have pointed out that the math doesn't even support that number. In summary, Hudak will fire 100,000 real, currently employed people who are providing essential services to other Ontarions, in order to fund corporate tax cuts that might create 400k jobs.....a number economists call imaginary. Not to mention, the plan will seriously harm education and healthcare. Wow...brilliant!

This election should have been a slam dunk for the PCs but ridiculous ideas like this along with an extremely unlikable leader have made it a race.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Mighty AC

[jacee]

We can't have a waffler can we?

Better a complete idiot than a waffler? Edited May 29, 2014 by jacee

[CPCFTW]

Great. Yes let's get specific. 500,000 jobs are expected to be created through growth with current policies that are in place under this current Liberal government. So Tim's plan is really only a 500k idea. But he will be firing 100,000 people so his Million Jobs plan is really 400k jobs PR stunt and economists have pointed out that the math doesn't even support that number. In summary, Hudak will fire 100,000 real, currently employed people who are providing essential services to other Ontarions, in order to fund corporate tax cuts that might create 400k jobs.....a number economists call imaginary. Not to mention, the plan will seriously harm education and healthcare. Wow...brilliant!

This election should have been a slam dunk for the PCs but ridiculous ideas like this along with an extremely unlikable leader have made it a race.

Yes let's get specific. Hudak isn't planning to fire 100,000 people. He is planning to reduce the public sector workforce by 100,000 people mostly through attrition.

[Mighty AC]

Yes. 100,000 current jobs will be erased. Real, existing jobs. That provide real services. The loss of which will severely damage education and healthcare delivery. These real jobs may or may not be replaced by an imaginary number of new positions Tim "strongly believes" will materialize, despite the fact that economists do not.

[CPCFTW]

Yes. 100,000 current jobs will be erased. Real, existing jobs. That provide real services. The loss of which will severely damage education and healthcare delivery. These real jobs may or may not be replaced by an imaginary number of new positions Tim "strongly believes" will materialize, despite the fact that economists do not.

The idea is to have the remaining 1mil public sector workers be 10% more productive. Kind of how the private sector trims fat to increase productivity when there are budgetary issues. It might be a new concept to you if you work in the public sector though.

[jacee]

The idea is to have the remaining 1mil public sector workers be 10% more productive. Kind of how the private sector trims fat to increase productivity when there are budgetary issues. It might be a new concept to you if you work in the public sector though.

I guess you've forgotten 20 years of downsizing:

Mike Harris

Paul Martin.

Funny they always go after employees providing services to children, the sick, the elderly, and never their own bloated and bleating 'political' staff who earn taxpayer dollars doing party business.

[Argus]

I completely respect Horvath. I think she's getting a bum deal from people in her party. I'd rather see her win than Wynne.

But I don't think her plan is realistic either. I don't think I've ever heard her talk about balancing the budget.

I respect that she, unlike the Liberals, actually cares about middle and low-income earners.

Or says she does. So does Wynne. So does Hudak. The history of the Ontario NDP is they only care about special interests. If you're in a union, if you're poor, a minority, disabled, gay, an immigrant or environmentalist, then the NDP is your party. If you're white, straight and middle class, then to the NDP you are nothing but a wallet, a wallet that is clearly too fat and needs thinning out so they can ship more of your money to their favoured groups.

[Argus]

I guess you've forgotten 20 years of downsizing:

Mike Harris

Paul Martin.

Funny they always go after employees providing services to children, the sick, the elderly, and never their own bloated and bleating 'political' staff who earn taxpayer dollars doing party business.

Realistically, 90% of provincial money goes for providing services and about .00001% goes on political staff.

How do you cut $12 billion from the budget without cutting services? If you're Kathleen Wynne it will simply happen through magic, no need to cut staff or services at all!

[Argus]

Maybe you should find out more.

Balance Ontario's Books by 2017-18

http://ourplan.ontariondp.ca/?source=homepage

I also respect that she is savvy enough to focus economic efforts on small business and entrepreneurship, where 77% of jobs are created.

.

Unfortunately, she gives no information on just HOW she plans on balancing the books. There are a lot of unpriced goodies there, too, like hiring more teachers and nurses and opening more home care clinics and cutting the HST from electricity.