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This week in Islam


kimmy

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Just now, eyeball said:

That Muslims are all the same? Of course I disagree with it.

That's not it of course.  If you can show where I said that I'll pop down the local Mosque and put $50 in the poor box.

Anyway, enough frivolity.  Do you think that peer and family pressure can be enough to coerce people into acting against their own best interests when it comes to religious tribunals? 

In this case, those of the Muslim Sharia type, but as I said earlier, my disdain applies to all.

 

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5 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Don't lie to the judge, that's all.

I disagree.  Not that one shouldn't lie to a judge.  Just that that is all.

That said, do you think that peer and family pressure can be enough to coerce people into acting against their own best interests when it comes to religious tribunals? 

Edited by bcsapper
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Just now, Marocc said:

I don't see what could go wrong if one is honest to the judge and to themselves.

Perhaps if the judge were Solomon.  Unfortunately the judge is liable to be influenced by religious beliefs.

If someone is opposed to those beliefs, but of a group that typically holds no sway with those who would have them act according to them, do you not think that peer and family pressure can be enough to coerce them into acting against their own best interests?

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2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

do you not think that peer and family pressure can be enough to coerce them into acting against their own best interests?

I'll answer.  :)  (I feel bad because you've asked like 4-5 times and gotten word salad in return)

Yes.  I do think that peer and family pressure can coerce people into acting against their best interests.  I would also add - religious pressure.

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18 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Perhaps if the judge were Solomon

The King Solomon — the prophet?

18 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Unfortunately the judge is liable to be influenced by religious beliefs.

The religious judge? In sharia Court? Are we still in the same topic? :huh:

18 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If someone is opposed to those beliefs

A non-Muslim need not go to an Islamic judge. In UK it is against the law to force someone to do that. Hence Muslims and the Islamic judge can force no one in UK to do anything. The idea of the Islamic court is to serve Muslims who believe in Islam and have those "religious beliefs".

18 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

do you not think that peer and family pressure can be enough to coerce them into acting against their own best interests?

This happens all the time. If that's your main interest, I bet you're the first person you should be worried about.

Edited by Marocc
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4 minutes ago, Marocc said:

The King Solomon — the prophet?

Anyone who is known for being really, really wise.  Newman, maybe.

 

4 minutes ago, Marocc said:

The religious judge? In sharia Court? Are we still in the same topic?

Same topic.

 

5 minutes ago, Marocc said:

A non-Muslim need not go to an Islamic judge. In UK it is against the law to force someone to do that. Hence Muslims and the Islamic judge can force no one in UK to do anything. The idea of the Islamic court is to serve Muslims who believe in Islam and have those "religious beliefs".

See "Do you think that peer and family pressure can be enough to coerce people into acting against their own best interests when it comes to religious tribunals?"  

 

5 minutes ago, Marocc said:

This happens all the time. If that's your main interest, I bet you're the first person you should be worried about.

Well I'm glad we finally agreed on that.  Where we disagree is whether or not religious tribunals should be a place where such occurs.  As to your last sentence, how much would you like to bet?

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20 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

That's not it of course. If you can show where I said that

No probably not explicitly, you're as well versed in all the required weasel words as most.

But like your stupid phobia this stupid thread exists for no other purpose than to lump Muslims together and if you've seen one dumbass conservative Islamophobe you've probably seen them all.

BTW can you spot the weasel word I just used?

 

Quote

Anyway, enough frivolity.  Do you think that peer and family pressure can be enough to coerce people into acting against their own best interests when it comes to religious tribunals?

Of course it can that's why our laws protect the rights of individuals.  That said and speaking about disdain for all ever notice how people who tend to be the most Islamophobic also spend an inordinate amount of time wringing their hands over family values? No surprise these also do a lot of complaining about individuals having too many rights.  It's actually conservatism of a very similar sort that does that. Probably just like it does in Egypt too.

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1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Perhaps.  I would not allow those conditions to exist that would force them to make those kind of choices, but that's just me.

How would you prevent it?  People do what they do, often regardless of laws.  They do things against their own best interests as a result of peer and family pressure, religious belief and even because they're in love. 

Oppressive regimes can probably do better than freer countries in terms of imposing "acceptable" behaviors, but even they get rebels and nonconformists. 

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

No probably not explicitly, you're as well versed in all the required weasel words as most.

But like your stupid phobia this stupid thread exists for no other purpose than to lump Muslims together and if you've seen one dumbass conservative Islamophobe you've probably seen them all.

BTW can you spot the weasel word I just used?

 

Of course it can that's why our laws protect the rights of individuals.  That said and speaking about disdain for all ever notice how people who tend to be the most Islamophobic also spend an inordinate amount of time wringing their hands over family values? No surprise these also do a lot of complaining about individuals having too many rights.  It's actually conservatism of a very similar sort that does that. Probably just like it does in Egypt too.

So not then.  Anyone who has ever read any of my posts on here knows that such an accusation is risible.

Laws protect against lots of things.  They still happen.

I don't know about the whole family values thing.  I'm vehemently pro choice.  Some would say that opposes the very idea of families.

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33 minutes ago, dialamah said:

How would you prevent it?  People do what they do, often regardless of laws.  They do things against their own best interests as a result of peer and family pressure, religious belief and even because they're in love. 

Oppressive regimes can probably do better than freer countries in terms of imposing "acceptable" behaviors, but even they get rebels and nonconformists. 

Granted, you can't prevent it from happening all the time.  But your second sentence there reinforces my belief that religious tribunals should not be allowed.

 

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17 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Granted, you can't prevent it from happening all the time.  But your second sentence there reinforces my belief that religious tribunals should not be allowed.

 

There was an attempt to set up similar tribunals in Ontario, but McGuinty (I think) said no.   As a side effect there were similar Jewish/Catholic tribunals that were disallowed.  I'm ok with that, but I suspect that they'll continue informally anyway.  People who believe will put their religion above man's law, especially when it comes to personal decisions.

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Just now, dialamah said:

There was an attempt to set up similar tribunals in Ontario, but McGuinty (I think) said no.   As a side effect there were similar Jewish/Catholic tribunals that were disallowed.  I'm ok with that, but I suspect that they'll continue informally anyway.  People who believe will put their religion above man's law, especially when it comes to personal decisions.

Sure, one can always go an see the local priest.  It can't be eradicated completely.  For that matter, there will always be people who "coerce themselves" based purely on their religious beliefs, without any peer or family pressure.  It just helps not to have a forum where it can be used on those who would rather pick a different direction.

 

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5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It just helps not to have a forum where it can be used on those who would rather pick a different direction.

Unless it's one that guards your personal interests? Like, say, a group of islamophobics trying to convince gullible Muslims that dressing modestly is overrated, abstaining from alcohol is boring and having casual sex is as innocent as buying oranges.

9 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

there will always be people who "coerce themselves" based purely on their religious beliefs, without any peer or family pressure. 

Or irreligious beliefs.

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9 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Unless it's one that guards your personal interests? Like, say, a group of islamophobics trying to convince gullible Muslims that dressing modestly is overrated, abstaining from alcohol is boring and having casual sex is as innocent as buying oranges.

Not in the form of a tribunal.  If one chooses to listen to one's irreverent neighbour, I suppose it's the same as visiting a priest.

Having casual sex is as innocent as buying oranges.  Costs less too.  Granted, the consequences could be greater, but there are things one can do to prevent them.

 

9 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Or irreligious beliefs.

Sure.  Like buying oranges!

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  • 2 weeks later...

This week in Islam we are reminded that the intolerance towards unbelievers or 'kafirs' among many Muslims does not focus solely on Christians and Jews. Sikhs are despised, as well, as the Sikhs in Europe are now learning due to the rise in the number of Muslims.

Terror attacks in Germany are becoming remarkably unremarkable. So when a bomb went off in the German city of Essen, near Düsseldorf – and killed nobody – it barely registered. The three teenagers who detonated the device were all members of a Whatsapp group called ‘Supporters of the Islamic Caliphate’, so their intentions seemed pretty clear: they wanted to wage war against the infidels of the West.

But their target – a Sikh temple – was striking. While initial reports suggested there was ‘no indication’ of a terrorist incident, any Sikh reading the news would have understood the motive, just as any Jew or Christian would have understood precisely why Islamic extremists target synagogues or churches. It was a religiously motivated attack, designed to remind Germany’s Sikh community that they should also be fearful.

It’s a common claim that Christian persecution at the hands of Islamic fundamentalists is overlooked. But after the murder of the French priest Father Jacques Hamel in Rouen earlier this month, it’s hard to brush aside the fact that Europe is becoming a religious battleground. The persecution meted out by Islamic State to many minorities in Syria and Iraq is arriving on our shores – and it is a gruesome spectacle. Jews and Christians have felt the brunt, but the Essen bomb was a reminder that Sikhs are also facing up to the menace of Islamic extremism.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/islamist-war-sikhs-arriving-europe/

 

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A horrifying video of an Afghan woman cowering in a hole as she is stoned to death by a furious crowd shouting 'hit her' and 'Allahu Akbar' is being  investigated by rights group

Although stoning is illegal under the Afghan constitution, it is seen as a legitimate punishment under the Taliban's extreme laws; the powers that be are blaming it on the Taliban who say it is from 2015.

Https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7964797/amp/Rights-group-investigates-horrifying-video-Afghan-woman.html

Meanwhile in the U.K. students are being taught by an Imam about the  5 pillars of Islam,  so I'm wondering how much time they spend teaching about other religions.   I've seen articles about U.K. students taken to a Mosque but I haven't seen anything about Muslim students being taken to a Church. 

https://www.knutsfordguardian.co.uk/news/18215225.bexton-pupils-learn-five-pillars-islam/?ref=twtrec

Edited by scribblet
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On 1/31/2020 at 5:36 PM, Marocc said:

The King Solomon — the prophet?

The religious judge? In sharia Court? Are we still in the same topic? :huh:

A non-Muslim need not go to an Islamic judge. In UK it is against the law to force someone to do that. Hence Muslims and the Islamic judge can force no one in UK to do anything. The idea of the Islamic court is to serve Muslims who believe in Islam and have those "religious beliefs".

This happens all the time. If that's your main interest, I bet you're the first person you should be worried about.

The fallacy can be found in your answer above and in particular the reference, "to serve Muslims who believe in Islam and have those "religious beliefs".

You interestingly should have put the quotation marks on the word  "those" not religious beliefs.

Your entire premises is built on the assumption that as long as a Judge is Islamic and their subject is Islamic there is no issue since you assume they are of the same following or religious beliefs. You are well aware that each Mullah, each Imam, each alleged Islamic Judge many not have the same Islamic beliefs as other Muslims. So it depends on what "THOSE" Islamic beliefs are. Please do not tell me an Ismaili Muslim would be ruled on impartially by a Shiite Judge or a Sunni Muslim would be judged upon fairly by a Sharia Judge/ So "THOSE" religious beliefs becomes crucial. Islam has never had one prevailing interpretation-and each sect so to speak has its own interpretations of sharia law not to mention within sects there are different interpretations as well.

The point you were made and do not understand is any religious official judging people does so based in his interpretation of Islam based on his religious views. They are not automatically fair or objective simply because the subject and judge are both Muslims. More to the point, we all come from religious with different people holding different interpretations of the same supposed religion. T

This is why Canada separates religion from state. Our laws must treat people of different religious values using the same objective standards of analysis, not ones based on our religious views. We find that less likely to attract bias in decisions. Its why we have a Charter of Rights and legal doctrine such as the rules of natural justice, doctrine of fairness, standard of reasonability or correctness.

Edited by Rue
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19 minutes ago, Rue said:

You are well aware that each Mullah, each Imam, each alleged Islamic Judge many not have the same Islamic beliefs as other Muslims.

An Islamic judge is highly educated. If he is legimate then yes, he holds the same beliefs. Whether or not he agrees or disagrees with some tiny debated detail in scripture, for instance, with someone else is irrelevant when it comes to his job.

20 minutes ago, Rue said:

Please do not tell me an Ismaili Muslim would be ruled on impartially by a Shiite Judge or a Sunni Muslim would be judged upon fairly by a Sharia Judge/ So "THOSE" religious beliefs becomes crucial.

Sects such as Ismaili, ahmadiyya and Shiite are not Islamic. As to the practitioners of those, as I previously mentioned, they don't need to go to an Islamic judge and I absolutely do not think that they would consider going. Ask one of those what they would do. I believe they'll laugh if you suggest they see an Islamic judge other than one who practices what they themselves practice. They are free like everyone else.

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10 hours ago, Marocc said:

Finally an answer to the grooming gang gossip going on here.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0306396819895727

It's a lengthy article in response to the media coverage regarding the alleged "grooming gangs" in UK in particular.

 

It's not a very good answer, though, is it?  It doesn't actually argue that the grooming gangs didn't/dont exist, or that they aren't of the cultural and religious makeup previously reported.

It takes issue with terms (Grooming gangs?  Okay, call them something else) and seeks to deflect criticism.  (People from the subcontinent had a hard time in the UK when they emigrated back in the sixties (sure) - Right wing extremists latch onto criticism of minorities (absolutely) - White folk do it too, just look at Jimmy Saville! (no kidding))

Basically it seeks to excuse the actions of the "grooming gangs" without actually saying they didn't do it, by stating that focusing on the fact that they did is the result of racism.  Even though the report it decries was written by Pakistani men. 

It also takes a typical attitude to the phrase "political correctness"  as though to denigrate that phrase is enough to deny the facts that the reporting on and prosecution of grooming gangs was limited by those who were afraid of being accused of racism, or cultural insensitivity, or stoking fires in divided communities.  Again, call it whatever you want. 

I've yet to read anything that says Pakistani Muslims are the only ones committing sex crimes in the UK.  The facts are, though, that gangs of Pakistani Muslims abused poor, working class white girls in many cities across northern England, and their religion and culture "very likely" contributed to their actions.  And attitudes amongst white authority figures contributed to that abuse going on longer and further than it should have, once it was exposed.  There's nothing wrong with reporting those facts.

But in the end, it's quotes like this [i]t is, of course, perfectly possible to be racist in the name of feminism or misogynist while laying claim to antiracism’ that indicate the motive of the author.  I mean, she gets to decide, right?  Those feminists and liberals who did seek to expose the truth are only "supposedly" feminists and liberals.

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On 2/17/2020 at 1:09 AM, Marocc said:

Finally an answer to the grooming gang gossip going on here.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0306396819895727

It's a lengthy article in response to the media coverage regarding the alleged "grooming gangs" in UK in particular.

You have to be joking...   alleged gossip  !!  

This is part of the problem deflection, denial and coverups allowed this all to go on for years

While it is a narrative it's a real one, confirmed over and over again by reports, the first from Rotherham.     This is nothing but an attempt to deflect from the atrocities and horrors of 'Asian grooming gangs'...   a name also meant to deflect from reality, so let's call them what they are,  mostly Muslim rape gangs.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-45918845

 

 

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Macron fearing Islam. Wants to supervise Muslims more.

https://www.france24.com/en/20200219-macron-unveils-curbs-on-foreign-imams-in-france-in-bid-to-combat-separatism

"Macron said he plans to end a programme created in 1977 that allowed nine countries to send imams and teachers to France to provide foreign language and culture classes without any supervision from French authorities."

 

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1 hour ago, Marocc said:

Macron fearing Islam. Wants to supervise Muslims more.

https://www.france24.com/en/20200219-macron-unveils-curbs-on-foreign-imams-in-france-in-bid-to-combat-separatism

"Macron said he plans to end a programme created in 1977 that allowed nine countries to send imams and teachers to France to provide foreign language and culture classes without any supervision from French authorities."

 

He doesn't "fear Islam".  He's using common sense.  Saudi Arabian imams have been sent all over the world to preach their special brand of hate.  It's a problem in Canada, too.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/10/22/a-toronto-imam-was-accused-of-hate-preaching-against-jews-but-that-wasnt-the-whole-story.html

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-imam-accused-of-spewing-hate-at-a-toronto-mosque-again

https://nationalpost.com/holy-post/toronto-imam-preaching-hate-instead-of-harmony

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/imam-sermon-montreal-mosque-1.4037397

https://globalnews.ca/news/4373959/ottawa-mosque-charity-hate-intolerance/

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/junaid-jahangir/islamophobia-canadian-speakers_b_15550104.html

https://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/anti-jewish-sermons-canadian-mosques

https://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/anti-semitic-discourse-uncovered-montreal-mosque

https://canadadocs.org/canadian-islamic-sermons-literature-on-killing-jews-and-enemies-of-islam/

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-imam-urges-sending-weapons-to-palestinians-to-fight-zionists

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40634993

https://calgaryherald.com/news/national/extremism-wasnt-a-reality-until-this-happened

https://www.timesofisrael.com/canadian-imam-wishing-merry-christmas-worse-than-murder/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/canadian-imam-wishing-merry-christmas-worse-than-murder/

 

 

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