This week in Islam

[Shady]

Sunnis are killing Shias, but that has nothing to do with Islam!

Exactly. Either is Boko Haram, or this new ISIS. Or Al Qaeda. Or the Taliban. Or Hamas. Or Hezbullah, etc, etc, etc.

[Shady]

This week in Islam!

Al-Shabaab militia goes door to door killing non-Muslims as Kenyan village watched World Cup

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2658751/Red-Cross-34-die-militant-attack-Kenya-town.html

[On Guard for Thee]

This week in Islam!

Al-Shabaab militia goes door to door killing non-Muslims as Kenyan village watched World Cup

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2658751/Red-Cross-34-die-militant-attack-Kenya-town.html

Don't Christians have a history of doing similar things. Why don't we just sideline religion, all of them, for all the damage it's done.

[Shady]

Don't Christians have a history of doing similar things. Why don't we just sideline religion, all of them, for all the damage it's done.

Ah yes! The usual, "all religions are bad" nonsense. Yes, Christians did have a history of doing similar things, as Bill Maher points out these things were done in the 7th century, and if it was the 7th century, he'd be totally criticizing them for it!

This isn't the 7th century anymore.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Shady

[On Guard for Thee]

Ah yes! The usual, "all religions are bad" nonsense. Yes, Christians did have a history of doing similar things, as Bill Maher points out these things were done in the 7th century, and if it was the 7th century, he'd be totally criticizing them for it!

This isn't the 7th century anymore.

Little choirboys getting it up the bum was a lot more recent than the 7th century.

[cybercoma]

Sunnis are killing Shias, but that has nothing to do with Islam!

A group is trying to take political control of Iraq. It has to do with politics first.

[Michael Hardner]

The flowchart goes like this:

1. Somebody killed somebody

2. Ask if the killer is religious

3. If they are religious ask what religion they are

4. If they're Muslim then you have the cause

Don't look for other causes, as we do when people generalize with regards to racial traits. That's what we've learned.

[Guest]

Yes, because if ISIS takes over Iraq it will be a secular state with religious freedom for all.

Honestly, it's like you're Flat Earthers.

[Argus]

The flowchart goes like this:

1. Somebody killed somebody

2. Ask if the killer is religious

3. If they are religious ask what religion they are

4. If they're Muslim then you have the cause

Don't look for other causes, as we do when people generalize with regards to racial traits. That's what we've learned.

Because everywhere in the world large groups of hundreds and thousands of killers are bombing and murdering people in large numbers in the name of uh... Anglicism?

Well, not really. If, in fact, this happened a lot, in the name of other religions, then you'd have a point. It doesn't.

[cybercoma]

Yes, because if ISIS takes over Iraq it will be a secular state with religious freedom for all.

Honestly, it's like you're Flat Earthers.

Who said ISIS is secular?

[cybercoma]

Because everywhere in the world large groups of hundreds and thousands of killers are bombing and murdering people in large numbers in the name of uh... Anglicism?Well, not really. If, in fact, this happened a lot, in the name of other religions, then you'd have a point. It doesn't.

They use drones and call it "freedom" and "democracy"

[On Guard for Thee]

ISIS is secular. Gotta be the funniest thing I've heard all day.

[Michael Hardner]

Well, not really. If, in fact, this happened a lot, in the name of other religions, then you'd have a point. It doesn't.

I already set up the analogy, which you ignored. The discussion ended at that point. Anything else you bring up is like the damp firework misfiring limply in the rain.

[Guest]

Who said ISIS is secular?

ISIS is secular. Gotta be the funniest thing I've heard all day.

Sorry, my mistake! It is a problem with Islam then. Understood.

[cybercoma]

Sorry, my mistake! It is a problem with Islam then. Understood.

It's Islam vs Islam. This is political first. It's like the Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Ireland. You don't see people saying it's the religion. Edited June 18, 2014 by cybercoma

[Argus]

They use drones and call it "freedom" and "democracy"

Are you saying drones kill people in the name of Anglicanism?

[Argus]

I already set up the analogy, which you ignored. The discussion ended at that point. Anything else you bring up is like the damp firework misfiring limply in the rain.

Sorry, but can't help exposing the basic illogic of your analogies. I know you find that frustrating.

[Argus]

It's Islam vs Islam. This is political first. It's like the Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Ireland. You don't see people saying it's the religion.

This is hardly a political first. The Shias and Sunnis have been slaughtering each other in Allah's name for centuries.

The Irish situation had little to do with religion, at least by the time of the troubles, and more to do with two separate communities which you could call the Irish and the British, or the Irish natives and the Irish colonizers.

[Michael Hardner]

Sorry, but can't help exposing the basic illogic of your analogies. I know you find that frustrating.

No, you just repeat your blunt observation that Muslim countries experience violence, which I responded to on this thread way back on May 2. You made the misstep of asking "why", though, and when I brought up the analogy you proceeded to bring up factors (ie. history, colonialism) that you somehow don't think applies to Muslim countries.

And that's as far as you got with your argument before you started circling back to point one over and over again.

[GostHacked]

Exactly. Either is Boko Haram, or this new ISIS. Or Al Qaeda. Or the Taliban. Or Hamas. Or Hezbullah, etc, etc, etc.

Let's completely ignore decades of intervention from foreign governments in the Middle East. Those decades of intervention brought us to the state we are in today. Kind of like blaming Obama for the failures of Iraq when Bush/Cheney started the war under false pretenses.

Are the Syrians pissed because of Islam? Or is it because we have foreign powers constantly stirring the pot, pitting Muslim against Muslim. Is Assad the bad guy or the Al-Queda type rebels the west has supported and continues to support?

[cybercoma]

But the Muslims! Nevermind the political vacuum left by military operations over there. It has nothing to do with politics. Muslims are violent by nature. Must be something in their genes.

[Argus]

No, you just repeat your blunt observation that Muslim countries experience violence, which I responded to on this thread way back on May 2. You made the misstep of asking "why", though, and when I brought up the analogy you proceeded to bring up factors (ie. history, colonialism) that you somehow don't think applies to Muslim countries.

I pointed out to you that Muslim countries have no similarity in history, no similarity in local culture or geography. Their only similiarity is Islam.

[Bob Macadoo]

I pointed out to you that Muslim countries have no similarity in history, no similarity in local culture or geography. Their only similiarity is Islam.

I thought it was pointed out to you.....poverty and colonialism are common denominators.

[Rue]

Poverty and colonialism are not specific to Islamic countries BMac.

While colonialism in particular the borders in Syria,Iraq, and in particular Iraq are artificially imposed,we can say the same about all of Africa and much of Asia and hey why stop there, all of South America and most of Europe.

Its such a general denominator that could be applied to almost any political conflict that it loses meaning unless we go into some other form of analysis.

In the case of Muslim nations, the one thing they have in common is a failure to achieve democracy. Some argue this is as a direct result of an inability to separate the Muslim religion from state as Christians finally did in Europe. Without that disconnect from the government and justice systems, the power of Islam as expressed through its religious clerics prevents free thought and therefore democracy.

This is why time and time again on this forum when people criticize Israel as being a Jewish state we see them try revise history to suggest the Islamic world was just fine until some Euro Jews showed up. They won't discuss that in fact allas not peaceful in the Islamic world and it was not all the fault of the British or French. No one forced the Mullah of Jerusalem to embrace Hitler and live through out Word War Two in Berlin where he played a fundamental role in creating the gas chambers and leading the genocide of Jews all while living in a stolen Jewish home. Egypt,Syria, Iraq embraced Nazism. They welcomed it. They created stats imitating Hitler's laws and their military wore the same uniforms and adopted the same goose-stepping. They embraced flags imitating the Nazi blood Swastika flag. They created mukbarat police police modelled on the Gestapo. That had everything to do with Muslims embracing Nazism and fusing it with their anti Jewish beliefs they belief were divine and originated from Muhammed's teachings.

The point is yes the British and French meddled and created artificial borders, but the leading Arab Lague of Nations embraced Hitler and Germany and the Hitler mustache was worn by most Arab men at one point. Nasser had one. Anwar Sadat had one. Both men wore jodhpur pants and uniforms based on Hitler's uniform. Go look at the ceremonial parades of the Arab League nations. Go look at the Nazi salutes and goose stepping used by Hamas, Hezbollah and now Iran.

No one forced this colonialism on Muslims. They embraced it.

Unlike Muslim nations, Israel does separate state from religion. It uses the state to provide refuge for Jews seeking to become citizens, it also laws allow Muslims and Christians to opt out of family and religious laws and go to their own religious tribunals to decide such matters. It has a Supreme Court that has enforced the right of Muslims to express their religion in public and have the same rights as Jews when citizens.

In fact Israel confers religious rights to non Jews as does say the Anglican state of England. Both have an identification with a religion but protect the right of those outside that religion as well. The demoractic and human rights of their states have evolved past the religious symbols.

The point Argus and many have made is that Islamic nations can not progress to democracy and develop democratic institutions until such time as they disconnect their religious clerics from also running its governments and justice systems.

The Islamic world is its own worst enemy. It is engaging in war against itself, Sunni v. Shiite, sect against sect. Te Amidyah Muslims, what did they do to invite their plight other than being peaceful?Ismailis? They are detested by other Muslims-why because their leader was/is a playboy?

What Islamic nation is progressive? Which one has separated religion from state sufficiently to the point that the government or justice system can operate without direct dictation from religious clerics?

How is it not one non Muslim in Arab League nations has the same rights Muslims do in Israel or say Britain which identifies as an Anglican nation but has separated its government and justice system from its identified religion.

Who has more freedom, a Muslim in the Anglican state of England or a Christian in a Muslim nation?

That is the point.

The point is genocide is still being carried out in Sudan by Muslims against people whose crime is they are not Muslim.

Look at the strife in Nigeria, Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, areas of the Philippines controlled by radical Muslims.

Look at Libya and Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states.

Show me one democracy.

What I can show you us a network of apartheid called dhimmitude. No one talks of that. No one talks of how a non Muslim citizen of a Muslim state is a dhimmi or khafir. No one knows what that means.

No one asks why Hamas and Hezbollah can so easily use the language of their religions to justify their criminal behaviour.

Blaming colonialism for their internal issues in Muslim nations is defective. The fact is colonial borders may have increased or exasperated certain conflicts, i.e., Iraq, let's get real, the Islamic world was not a peaceful one prior to colonialism. It was a society full of wars between Muslims and also with non Muslims.

To do what some do on this forum and try revise history to suggest there were no problems with Islam until some white people showed up from Europe is a crock.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Rue

[Shady]

Let's completely ignore decades of intervention from foreign governments in the Middle East.

Sorry, but that has nothing to do with radical Islam. Foreign governments didn't write the Koran.