This week in Islam

[Argus]

Right. So keep posting links of acts that you deem extreme, and I will agree that they're extreme and there will be no progress in this discussion. Is that what you want ? It seems so, as you're not really moving the discussion ahead at all.

But you've never agreed that anything I've posted is extreme...

Edited May 23, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

You say I'm making excuses for murder, while I've done nothing of the sort. In fact, someone who reads my posts carefully will notice that what I actually did was denounce Western violence. Upon reading that, you see it as being an apologist for terrorism.

Not terrorism, but Muslims, because they're largely not white or Christian and so you feel the need to step in and make excuses for them.

If Baptists in the US behaved like Muslims behave you'd be demanding the religion be declared illegal and that no Baptists ever be allowed to visit Canada. There'd be no exuses for people who were white and Christian and who wanted to murder gays, which wanted to cover women up and beat them if they showed so much as a hair, which had vindictive and violent rules of law.

And you know why that is?

Because you're extremely politically correct?

You're so stuck on the superiority and validity of our Western violence

Again with the violence thing. I'm talking about an extremist and intolerent religion with dispicable rules of law which are widely supported in the Muslim world, not mere violence. Yes, the laws are often violent, but it's difficult to compare the idea of hanging a teenage girl from a crane because she got pregnant out of wedlock vs executing a rapist killer.

But we're also talking about an entire attitude which Islamic law speaks of, an attitude which is cruel, intolerent, violent, xenophobic, and applies medieval punishments for minor transgressions. I'm sure that you'd find that loony toon preacher in the US who pickets funerals of gay people an extremist. I think he has a web site called godhatesfags.com.

But you seem to have a horrible problem descirbing the believers in Islamic law which wants all gays executed as extremist. Why?

Why do you do that? Because you have a sense of national, cultural and ethnic superiority. We're pure and righteous, so our violence i justified, while the Others are vulgar barbarians worthy of nothing but your contempt.

Spare me. It's been a long time since I thought any of our governments were 'pure and righteous'. However, in terms of laws applies through their cultures, western governments are generally fairly benign (with some exceptions, esp in certain US states), and far, far more socially advanced than the likes of Iran or Sudan or any other Muslim country.

[cybercoma]

Here you go with "it's the religion" again despite that claim being very thoroughly and clearly refuted page after page. I can see I was right. This discussion won't be fruitful.

[Michael Hardner]

But you've never agreed that anything I've posted is extreme...

Yes, I did that above.

[Michael Hardner]

Murder is not extremism, nor is it an indication of extremism in society. It's more of an indication of societal breakdown, poverty and lack of policing ability.

Your definition is built upon itself, so you can say that the extreme things you cite are extreme but you can't compare them to other things.

[Argus]

Here you go with "it's the religion" again despite that claim being very thoroughly and clearly refuted page after page. I can see I was right. This discussion won't be fruitful.

Let me say that your judgement as to 'thoroughly and clearly refuted' is laughable, and based entirely upon your ideoligical belief that no ethnic or religious group can ever be judged poorly for any reason.

[Argus]

Yes, I did that above.

Do you or do you not believe that Sharia (Islamic Law) and its proponants are extremists?

[cybercoma]

Let me say that your judgement as to 'thoroughly and clearly refuted' is laughable, and based entirely upon your ideoligical belief that no ethnic or religious group can ever be judged poorly for any reason.

You certainly haven't established the religion as the cause and experts in the intelligence community disagree with that notion as well. So yeah. It has been refuted or at the very least your argument that Muslims are dangerous when there's millions of them in the West that aren't.

[cybercoma]

For that matter, there's millions of them not in the West that are being killed by other Muslims, so they're both the victims and the perpetrators. Pretty tough to draw their religion as the cause then.

[Michael Hardner]

Do you or do you not believe that Sharia (Islamic Law) and its proponants are extremists?

I don't have enough information as to what that means. Does Sharia law demand draconian punishments, for example ? I think the examples you talked about earlier were extreme, though.

[GostHacked]

Again with the violence thing. I'm talking about an extremist and intolerent religion with dispicable rules of law which are widely supported in the Muslim world, not mere violence.

You are actually talking about an extremist and intolerant view among RADICAL FUNDAMENTALIST Muslims, not Islam on the whole.

[GostHacked]

Do you or do you not believe that Sharia (Islamic Law) and its proponants are extremists?

Do you care that Afghanistan has the same rule of law as under the Taliban as they do under this new government?

Sharia is not compatible with many modern nations law system.

[Argus]

I don't have enough information as to what that means. Does Sharia law demand draconian punishments, for example ? I think the examples you talked about earlier were extreme, though.

Do you believe people who want Islamic law, as represented by the examples I posted earlier are extremists by our standards?

[Argus]

Do you care that Afghanistan has the same rule of law as under the Taliban as they do under this new government?

Sharia is not compatible with many modern nations law system.

I don't care what happens in Afghnistan. If you believe Sharia is not compatible with the modern world what do you think those who want to impliment Sharia are extremists?

[Argus]

You are actually talking about an extremist and intolerant view among RADICAL FUNDAMENTALIST Muslims, not Islam on the whole.

That's been the mantra, yes, however, I posted a poll earlier in the thread indicating the majority of people in the Muslim world support Islamic law and want it implimented in their country. In my view, anyone who supports Islamic law is a religious extremist. Do you disagree?

[Argus]

It has been refuted or at the very least your argument that Muslims are dangerous when there's millions of them in the West that aren't.

Depends on what kind of danger you're talking about.

[kimmy]

This week in Islam: Brooklyn man kills wife for making wrong dinner.

People killing their spouses in domestic disputes isn't uncommon. What sucks ass about this particular incident is that his legal defense is attempting to use his culture as a mitigating factor:

Defense attorney Julie Clark admitted Hussain beat his wife — but argued that he is guilty of only manslaughter because he didn’t intend to kill her. In Pakistan, Clark said, beating one’s wife is customary.

“He comes from a culture where he thinks this is appropriate conduct, where he can hit his wife,” Clark said in her opening statements at the Brooklyn Supreme Court bench trial. “He culturally believed he had the right to hit his wife and discipline his wife.”

Imagine your name is Julie Clark and you're trying to argue your client is guilty of a lesser offense because his culture says it's ok to beat women.

-k

[The_Squid]

If there're allowed to assault their children for cultural reasons, why not their wives? Where's the difference? The adult can actually choose to leave.... Unlike a child...

[Argus]

If there're allowed to assault their children for cultural reasons, why not their wives? Where's the difference? The adult can actually choose to leave.... Unlike a child...

Assaulting ones wife and children are routine in the Muslim world. Not only have they never moved beyond tha attitude we once possessed that 'what happens in the family is no one elses business', and not only are their cultures far more patriarchial and lacking in respect for women, but their clerics find justification in the Koran for such things.

http://www.nairaland.com/535177/uae-court-rules-men-beat

Edited May 24, 2014 by Argus

[monty16]

Assaulting ones wife and children are routine in the Muslim world. Not only have they never moved beyond tha attitude we once possessed that 'what happens in the family is no one elses business', and not only are their cultures far more patriarchial and lacking in respect for women, but their clerics find justification in the Koran for such things.

http://www.nairaland.com/535177/uae-court-rules-men-beat

But it's not alright to talk about 'brotherly love in Alabama is it. Demonize all Muslims by labelling them all wife and children beaters and that's politically correct?

[cybercoma]

Assaulting ones wife and children are routine in the Muslim world.

http://www.nairaland.com/535177/uae-court-rules-men-beat

Let's not pretend this doesn't happen in the West. And the only reason I'm saying that is because you're arguing as if beating your wife is unique to Islam.

[cybercoma]

Here's a report on the statistics from a few years ago if you're interested in knowing the scope of the problem.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2012001/article/11643-eng.pdf

[Guest]

Not unique. Just okay.

[Guest]

Iranian actress faces sanctions, including a possible flogging, for kissing a man on the cheek and showing some hair at Cannes. For those with selective blinkers, I've highlighted some religious references.

http://arts.nationalpost.com/2014/05/23/iranian-student-group-says-leila-hatami-should-be-publicly-flogged-after-cannes-red-carpet-kiss/

“We, the undersigned, who are a group of student Muslim brothers and sisters, ask the cultural and media branch of the judiciary to prosecute Leyla Hatami for her sinful act of kissing a strange man in public, which according to article 638 of Islamic Criminal Justice carries a prison sentence,” a petition filed by Hizbullah Students on Tuesday read, according to The Daily Telegraph. “Furthermore, the action of this film star has hurt the religious sentiments of the proud and martyrs breeding nation of Iran and as such we also demand the punishment of flogging for her as stipulated in the law.”

Edited May 25, 2014 by bcsapper

[Michael Hardner]

Do you believe people who want Islamic law, as represented by the examples I posted earlier are extremists by our standards?

Yes, people who want extreme punishment are extremists.