Pipeline Politics - EU wants more North American Oil

[PIK]

For about 40 years or so then...pffft.

That oil could have sustained us for generations and positioned us like...Norway, who's own NEP put 500 billion dollars in it's pension fund with plenty left over to come buy our's out from under us.

What does norway have to do with it, apple and oranges.

[eyeball]

And here you prove my point to a tee. You don't support oil sands development (especially if it goes through your back yard) yet you have your hand out for the pension fund!

You want to know the difference between Norway and Canada? Norwegians support their oil development. They understand the benefits it brings and the country is not bogged down with bi-lateral movements dragging it down. Canada has the same opportunity for prosperity and trust funds as Norway but it needs to develop the resources to do so. This means pipelines.

If you don't want to develop the pipelines then don't bitch about not having the pension trust fund. It's very simple!

I don't like that oil sands development is following the path it's taken, especially when that path plows through my province in the wake of a environmental protection regime that was deliberately gutted by Ottawa. If it's not immediately obvious why this sets off alarm bells in BC then you'll never understand the opposition. Alberta threatened to leave the country because they didn't like Ottawa telling them what to do. The fact that Alberta is now so willing for Ottawa to impose a national energy transportation program over the wishes of non-Albertans is disgraceful to say the least.

The difference in Norway is that they probably trust their national government a lot more than we do our's. Our pension fund will never come anywhere near Norway's as a result of the tar sands. I don't have any expectation of any kind of direct tangible benefit at all. I expect the opposite and our province will suffer environmental consequences that will have grave economic consequences down the road that will far outlive the brief bloom of benefits going to Alberta and maybe Ottawa.

Truth to tell, I was also younger at the time the NEP was proposed and I didn't understand Alberta's opposition to Ottawa's proposal, ironically enough in the wake of Ottawa's mismanagement of our fisheries now I do understand Alberta's mistrust of Ottawa. Alberta threatened to leave the country because they didn't like Ottawa and a bunch of damned easterners telling them what to do. The fact that Alberta is now so willing for Ottawa to impose a national energy transportation program over the wishes of non-Albertans seems to be at complete odds with that sentiment.

Edited March 31, 2014 by eyeball

[Accountability Now]

The difference in Norway is that they probably trust their national government a lot more than we do our's

The fact that Alberta is now so willing for Ottawa to impose a national energy transportation program over the wishes of non-Albertans seems to be at complete odds with that sentiment.[/size]

You keep comparing Norway to Canada when there is no comparison where as a comparison of Norway to Alberta is more suitable. Norway has 5M people versus 4m in Alberta. Alberta is about 600k sq km and Norway is about 400k. The difference is that Norway's oil proceeds go to support itself and Alberta gets to share with the ROC. Alberta still does well which is why the Heritage Fund is around 17billion but it could be and would be better if Alberta was on it's own. Now...with that said, it doesn't mean Alberta should be on its own.

In regards to this so called national energy program that you keep referring to. Allowing areas for Alberta to take the oil to market is not a national program. It's two entities realizing they both have something to gain from the venture....as a joint venture. Not like the NEP that looked to have Canada benefit from Alberta's resources. Perhaps you'd understand if the Government were to tell BC they had to sell their lumber for much less so the ROC could get a good price.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Accountability Now

[overthere]

I don't support Alberta's tar sands products if it means shipping them west. I oppose them coming this way primarily because of Ottawa's proven negligence when it comes to it's responsibility for all the fish and fish habitat that stand between Alberta and it's prime target customer, China, which brings up the 2nd reason I oppose shipping Alberta's tar sands products west. Fuelling the growth of aggressive and oppressive super-powers is insane, full stop. It's bad enough BC is doing this with our coal and why our nation stands for it is beyond me.

I share your opinion, shipping your bitumen east gives us far more opportunity to add value along the way before offering it to Europe as an alternative to purchasing energy and thereby supporting the growth of yet another oppressive and aggressive super-power, Russia.

How do you feel about the massive pipeline, port(Kitimat) and LNG tanker infrastructure BC is extremely anxious to get in place ASAP to ship gas to.....China?

[overthere]

Alberta threatened to leave the country

A few angry Albertans have threatened to leave the country on occasion, as have people from BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement).

The Alberta government has never threatened to leave Canada.

The support for AB separation is so low it is laughable, and always has been.

A major obstacle to separation would be that so few people resident in Alberta are actually from Alberta now.

[bleeding heart]

Just so. Not too many of us consider the prospect of Albertan separation to be a serious concern...because Albertans don't consider it to be a serious concern.

Therefore, it isn't.

[overthere]

Seems to be not a peep in BC about the many pipelines proposed and approved for their own resource extraction. I guess they cross different waterways and First Nations territories.http://commonsensecanadian.ca/map-shows-multiple-proposed-oil-gas-pipelines-bcs-carbon-corridor/

Or not.

And let's not even talk about BC coal exports.

[eyeball]

How do you feel about the massive pipeline, port(Kitimat) and LNG tanker infrastructure BC is extremely anxious to get in place ASAP to ship gas to.....China?

I'm against it if China is the only market we can find for it. Edited April 7, 2014 by eyeball

[overthere]

I'm against it if China is the only market we can find for it.

I don't understand what that means. Why would you think China is the only market for gas and oil?

I think that , unlike some of us, China India Korea Taiwan and many other Asian nations have looked at a map and thought: wtf is wrong with Canada? They have a huge market on their doorstep and are unable to build the standard delivery infrastructure in their own country.

[eyeball]

I don't understand what that means.

You get a lot of that around here.

Remember Harper's trepidation about trading with China in the past? Do you understand why Harper is in such a tizzy over Russia these days?

I sure don't.

[overthere]

You get a lot of that around here.

Remember Harper's trepidation about trading with China in the past? Do you understand why Harper is in such a tizzy over Russia these days?

I sure don't.

So sell the oil and gas to any of the many other Pacific Rim nations who want to buy it. End of problem. Continuation of prosperity.

You(BC) sell filthy coal now to China and not a protester to be seen.

You(BC) are about to pound numerous pipelines across waterways and First Nations territory and not a protester to be seen.

But Alberta oil(which has been moved in vast quantities across BC for 50+ years without incident) is suddenly akin to liquid plutonium.

Odd that.

[eyeball]

So sell the oil and gas to any of the many other Pacific Rim nations who want to buy it. End of problem. Continuation of prosperity.

I'd like to see Ottawa's official commitment to not fuel the growth of dictatorships via trade legislated.

You(BC) sell filthy coal now to China and not a protester to be seen.

You(BC) are about to pound numerous pipelines across waterways and First Nations territory and not a protester to be seen.

Odd that.

Of course there are protesters to coal and new pipelines in BC, many of which include concerns about selling oil to countries with lax human and environmental standards. Like I said, I don't understand why other provinces and countries aren't saying anything about the networks of dictatorship we've economically committed ourselves to.

We should be ashamed of ourselves for fuelling the growth of aggressive oppressive countries

But Alberta oil(which has been moved in vast quantities across BC for 50+ years without incident) is suddenly akin to liquid plutonium

That's just not true.

http://www.transmountain.com/spill-history

Here is a list of incidents involving Kinder Morgan's BC operations in the past several years:

• July 15, 2005: About 210,000 litres of crude were released into the area surrounding the company's Sumas Mountain storage facility in Abbotsford, making its way into Kilgard Creek.
• July 24, 2007: An oil spill occurred along the Kinder Morgan pipeline in Burnaby when a construction crew inadvertently hit the unmarked pipe with an excavator. Almost 250,000 litres (about 1500 barrels) of oil shot out of the ground, soaking a residential neighbourhood and seeping into the Burrard Inlet. At least 50 homes had to be evacuated. (Click to view the BC Ministry of Environment Incident Report)
• May 6, 2009: A sizeable spill was discovered at the company's Burnaby Mountain tank farm, with almost 200,000 litres leaking out into the facility.
• January 24, 2012: A pipeline rupture at the Sumas Mountain tank farm spilled an estimated 110,000 litres of oil. Local residents reported health problems including nausea, headaches and fatigue, and schoolchildren were kept indoors for fear of airborne toxins.
• April 3, 2012: Another spill in a "containment area" at the Abbotsford Sumas Mountain facility caused nuisance odors and air quality concerns in surrounding communities.
• June 12, 2013: A leak was discovered on the Kinder Morgan pipeline near Merritt, BC.
• June 26, 2013: Just two weeks after the spill near Merritt, yet another leak was discovered – this time spilling up to 4,000 litres of oil at a site near the Coquihalla Summit, about 40 km east of Hope, BC.

https://wildernesscommittee.org/frequently_asked_questions_regarding_the_kinder_morgan_pipeline_proposal

[jacee]

kinder-morgan-survey-crews-pack-up-burnaby-mountain-worksite-early

On Thursday, a B.C. Supreme Court judge refused to extend a court injunction against protesters for another 12 days, forcing Kinder Morgan to pack up before it completed its work.

The company also admitted to the court that it provided incorrect GPS co-ordinates when it initially sought the injunction, prompting the judge to throw out civil contempt charges against dozens of activists who had been protesting the survey work.

Edited November 29, 2014 by jacee

[Keepitsimple]

kinder-morgan-survey-crews-pack-up-burnaby-mountain-worksite-early

On Thursday, a B.C. Supreme Court judge refused to extend a court injunction against protesters for another 12 days, forcing Kinder Morgan to pack up before it completed its work.

The company also admitted to the court that it provided incorrect GPS co-ordinates when it initially sought the injunction, prompting the judge to throw out civil contempt charges against dozens of activists who had been protesting the survey work.

What's your point? Throwing out the charges because the GPS coordinates were wrong? Fortunately, they got some of it right....

The order doesn't apply to a small handful of protesters who faced criminal charges for assault or obstruction of justice.

Cullen also revised the injunction to correct the GPS co-ordinates for the one work site that is still active, so protesters arrested under that revised injunction could still face civil contempt charges.

Link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/kinder-morgan-loses-bid-to-extend-injunction-1.2852222

[WestCoastRunner]

The city and community of Burnaby have expressed their intolerance to Kinder Morgan building another pipeline but yet they are are still allowed to perform analysis. What has happened to the voice of communities that don't want these pipelines built within their cities? Here are some facts that are not well publicized:

• the pipeline would result in seven times the current number of supertankers carrying oil through Burrard Inlet
• the oil the new pipeline would carry is for export, not for use in Canada
• the new pipeline would carry unrefined bitumen – not the refined oil product carried in the current pipeline
• 90% of the proposed pipeline would follow a new route in Burnaby. Contrary to what Kinder Morgan says

[Smallc]

And? Where would you rather it go?

[WestCoastRunner]

And? Where would you rather it go?

Why does it need to go anywhere? Let's explore alternatives. No one seems to get that the citizens of Burnaby do not want this pipeline through their backyard.

[Smallc]

Why does it need to go anywhere? Let's explore alternatives. No one seems to get that the citizens of Burnaby do not want this pipeline through their backyard.

Everyones a NIMBY. That doesn't mean that projects shouldn't proceed. Also, what alternatives?

[WestCoastRunner]

Everyones a NIMBY. That doesn't mean that projects shouldn't proceed. Also, what alternatives?

Communities have the right to determine if pipelines should flow through their communities. Nothing wrong with that. Are we at that point where we ram pipelines through communities that don't want them? Can you answer me that? I am no energy specialist but if the community of Burnaby doesn't want the pipeline,build it where a community welcomes it!

[Smallc]

Communities have the right to determine if pipelines should flow through their communities. Nothing wrong with that. Are we at that point where we ram pipelines through communities that don't want them? Can you answer me that? I am no energy specialist but if the community of Burnaby doesn't want the pipeline,build it where a community welcomes it!

If you chose to live in burnaby, you chose, knowingly, to be very near the busiest port in the country. That's a reality. It's also worth noting that pipelines are not a local issue, and will be decided by the proper authority.

[WestCoastRunner]

If you chose to live in burnaby, you chose, knowingly, to be very near the busiest port in the country. That's a reality. It's also worth noting that pipelines are not a local issue, and will be decided by the proper authority.

It actually is a local issue. Hence, the protestors.

[Smallc]

It actually is a local issue. Hence, the protestors.

Not according to the law it isn't. It's actually a national issue.

[WestCoastRunner]

Not according to the law it isn't. It's actually a national issue.

However, there are those nasty community dwellers that have a say. Darn it all!

[Smallc]

However, there are those nasty community dwellers that have a say. Darn it all!

They really don't though, except through their federal representative.

[WestCoastRunner]

They really don't though, except through their federal representative.

Well, protestors are protesting that exact thing, and we should all get out of their way